Thank you Joseph!

The fact that she is promiscuous, and he still has his virginity has nothing to do with withholding knowledge from him. You two keep mentioning the people throughout the thousands of years that have been forced to be measured by others morals. I dont know if you realize but most of the world in every society has the same simple standard morals. Cheating, stealing, lying, killing, and the list goes on. These things bring a code for order in society so someone does not infringe their free will over someone elses. She needs to tell him the truth so it will set her free. She will not be harboring guilt for keeping a secret that he needed to know to be fully committed to her. Whether he judges her or not is irrelevant because he should not have to sacrifice his morals for her deception and she should not have to live up to his moral expectations.

Women who have tried their best to keep sex to relationships or the odd one-off fling don’t seem to want to be bothered with this discussion and why should they? They obviously know what sex is supposed to be about, something intimate and special.

Some women (and men) out there like to be the victim. They somehow justify their feelings as being valid while everyone else’s is unrealistic and that society is too uptight or they are having a finger pointed at them. We have to realize people that in this life there are consequences to our actions.

If I go to a store and shoplift a shirt and get caught, the managment will call the police and I’m going to jail.

If I tell the police that I’m sorry, I just had a bad day or I’m poor and can’t afford a shirt so I took it, guess what happens—I’m still going to jail!

There is nothing more frustrating than some people out there who try to justify their reasons for sleeping around: I was just drunk; I needed to find love anywhere I could; all my friends do it or I went through a “phase”.

There are consequences to our actions in this world. Just ask someone with HIV if a certain unprotected sexual encounter had consequences. If some women feel it necessary out there to sleep around with many different partners then they have to be willing to accept that they might inherit labels like “slut” not only from men but from other women too. If they are OK with that fine, but don’t come online and bitch and complain that people aren’t being fair and somehow that they need to be counted as equal in the sex department to a person who commits to a relationship or who has had sex discerningly. I should also point out that men can be sluts too and are by no means discounted from this.

That’s not to say that people out there don’t make mistakes and learn from them and move on. But let’s be honest, the term “slut” is not something that washes off easily.

Nobody’s saying that men on the whole want a virgin. Let’s be realistic here. Relationships fail and there are the odd moments of weakness. To be honest, I would prefer a woman with a little experience because it shows that she is human and has loved and lost. But I’m not going to respect a woman who has had 30 partners in the same manner as a woman with 4 or 5 as a sexually mature person.

It just annoys me that people seem to criticize others for picking and choosing who they want to sleep with. I am male. Society pushes me into sleeping around. It’s cool to be a “stud” and bang as many unsuspecting women as possible. Am I ever tempted to? Sure, I’m human but I have enough standards and respect for myself and current/future lovers to protect my reputation as well as my body.

There are a lot of men out there who have bragged about women they’ve scored with. I’ve been in the locker rooms and bar washrooms. But I can guarantee not a lot of men would EVER seriously consider marrying a girl who has ever been called a “slut”. They’re just for joke material and soon- forgotten stories.

I think it boils down to two types of sexual thinkers.

1) Those that treat sex like a fun activity to be shared and enjoyed with friends, strangers etc

2) Those that treat sex as something sacred.

There are degrees of each and I obviously decided to be extreme in each case.

We have problems when one of each style try to have a relationship together.

To complicate the situation further, here is another point. Some people are hypocritical in their behavior and their thoughts with themselves.(mostly men) That is, they act like 1s, treating sex like candy, sharing it often with mulitple partners but when it is time for a serious partner expect them to have behaved like a sacred (2). Will not except a partner who has behaved like a “1″ and deem them unworthy.

I am a man myself. I know this because I think like this too. We love to be slutty little whores scewing all types of different women from different countries but when it comes to our hearts, if the women we are with has behaved like us in the past, it is unexceptable. Why is this? Why do we think this way? Women seem not to care as much. They love us with their heart regardless of the amount of women we have had. Sometimes it turns them on to hear how whorish we had been. Others it makes them more secure that we have “gotten it out of our system”.

I think the answer to this problem (for men) is as a socitety we are confused and fighting an internal stuggle. I state again, I think this is a mainly a man’s problem. Perhaps stemming from recent women’s open promiscuity that has been critisized in the past and looked down upon.

We believe, the more our women enjoy mulitple sexual partners the less sacred it can become with one special man.

Who knows.. I do know this.. when the women we love tells us “the number”.. every number above ourselves burns somthing primal into our egos and jelous replaying possessive minds.

Of course, it’s everyone’s choice whether to divulge personal information (it is personal, after all). However, people will judge regardless of what they know. I’d rather have a partner judge me on factual information rather than some assumption that developed due to lack of information. If you don’t want to be judged negatively, then don’t do things that are judged negatively. That’s the price of doing things that are looked down on in your society. If you want to do whatever you want to do, then accept the judgment and move on. We can’t have our cake and eat it, too.

I stress that it’s the imagery of the “emotional part” in previous sex bouts that hurts, not the exact information on numbers, be it 3 or 40. Since the man has survived 3, he might survive 40 as well. I advocated lying when no numbers were yet revealed and no chances to find out.

1. Women CAN and DO change for the best. Their changes are permanent as they are more truthful to the promises than men. If we ignore this fact in favor of past sex “information”, the judgment will be flawed, if not regrettable.

2. There IS a twilight region between the inorganic dictums like “sin & virtue” etc. Life resides just there. Nobody is perfect and this makes life so wonderful to live. What is perfect in flesh & blood?

I can tell you an Indian story: Once a deer came running into the hermitage where a monk was meditating. The deer sought protection from him as it was chased by a hungry tiger. The monk hid it in his hermitage. Soon after, the tiger came up and asked if the monk saw any deer. The monk lied but offered the tiger with some milk while having a consoling chat. The tiger believed the monk (since monks can not lie!) and went away rather happy with a full stomach. The monk released the deer with an advice to be more careful. Has the monk committed a sin by lying? Should he have given away the deer? Or should he have refused shelter? Ask yourself what would YOU have done. Things are really not so cut & dry.

3. There IS a philosophy of “becoming” according to Indian spirituality. (There are some discussions in this post about it.) It says you become “God-like” yourself by constantly worshipping God. (Worship means honesty, selflessness etc. It has nothing to do with some fixed “dos & don’ts” codes). Thus, a so called promiscuous woman can also be God-like from the moment she surrenders herself to God AND to her new found man. In Ramayana, Lord Rama delivered a prostitute (Ahalya) as her soul was always devoted to God, no matter what her living required her to do.

4. Coming back to the issue of the post, I wonder why at all she divulged the number 3. As xman says, and I fully agree, she could take all the 40 to her grave, consigning those to past nightmares, and look for a new wonderful beginning. But I think she has already committed an error by a half lie. It should be a full lie. A woman must tell a firm “NONE” (except of course those with previous husbands, if divorced. But it’s understood.) Nothing is provable beyond reasonable doubts. So, LIE and LIE FIRMLY ABOUT IT RIGHT FROM DAY 1 and DEFEND it to the grave. And CHANGE, CHANGE PERMANENTLY TO A BEST LOVING WIFE. This is in the interest of both.

5. What is the meaning of “virginity” “soild values” “non-promiscuous” etc of a man? Is he a monk? (Even monks slip, because it is the property of flesh & blood.) Has he never even masterbated thinking of a nice neighbor or Sophia Loren? Has not ever his subconscious sex drives led him to soil the bed in erotic dreams? Undeformed nether lips can not be any point of serious assessment, they anyway get deformed by time (I always thought we, Indians, clamoured for virgin brides…but it does not seem to be the case.)

BUT BUT BUT I do agree it’s extremely painful to stomach the “emotional” involvement I alluded to earlier. It is impossible to treat her as a “princess” which we all men want to treat our women like. I’m a sufferer myself and I know. But thinking of the great love the man has bestowed on her, he should consider no.1 as the only way to be happy with her, who now is a new woman risen like a Sphinx. I advance no.4 above as a plausible solution for future cases.

Good evening to ALL.
KK

It’s this attempt to make ourselves accept other behaviors that leads to the moral relativism that previous posters mentioned. However, it’s really not neccessary. All we need to do is tolerate others and in exchange they will tolerate us.

Speaking as an atheist and as someone who was raised in the Catholic church, I have to say that Catholicism specifically does not teach nor imply that those who are not virgins are ‘bad’ or are unworthy of marriage. That’s nonsense. In all my years at Catholic school and college did I ever hear anything like this. How tolerant would you be if you spread lies about various faiths?

This is not about ego, or “it is what made me who I am today”, or chauvinism or double standards or evolution or 1950 or “not anyone else’s business” or anything else you can come up with. It’s not really about freedom to do as one wishes with their body, rather freedom for anyone to have the truth and choose if the partner they are picking is acceptable by their value system. Yes this is about choice and preference and honesty. Plain and simple.

I too am one of those men who has let a girl I loved go because of her sexual promiscuity. I do miss her but she did not fall in line with my values and I would never again be able to respect her. She deserved better. So did I. I was not going to lower my standards for any of the reasons that so many have listed above. I don’t ask for much but to me self respect is very important. She is now in her late 30’s and still single and full of a lot of regret. I am sad for her. But she did make her choices, sadly they were based on the lies of an earlier generation. Now she pays for those choices. I now have everything that she wanted to have with me. Much of it is now too late for her to ever have. Having loved her and in some ways still do, I am very sad for her. Its such a sad fate that it appears many women are suffering due to the assumption that today’s men are required to and will be accepting of this.

We all make choices and we all will be judged for them. Every choice comes with a price. It appears that for promiscuous women that price is respect and life long love. Men’s preferences in women have been consistent throughout history. This type of woman has never been desired by men. Like it or not, that seems to be the underlying truth here.

I have myself lived through such trauma of suspicion. My spouse only hinted at her past once that led to many sleepless nights for me. But thinking in that line helped me. Moreover, her love is genuine and life is too short to be unhappy. Still, I’d say she did not even hint at it…Hence my comments.

Having said the above, I fully realize that the knowledge or suspicion about past escapades of the spouse does hurt the man very really; the intimate imageries involving the spouse and other men do keep returning irresitibly and devastatingly. It is impossible to “rationalize it away” once a suspicion pops up its head when the woman hints at it even by mistake. Thus, a small white lie can save the relationship which is so wonderfully going. I should add that women want to honestly seek a relationship and in the process end up giving themselves, butvery well be eventually left alone, not for her fault. I would not call it “promiscuity”. Would you call a successful man a “failure” just because his earlier applications were rejected? I fully subscribe to the idea that women become wiser through failures (wrongly termed as promiscuity)with men and look to someone they can realy love. It is indeed lucky for the man if a woman fears losing him.

I just object to being told I am “promiscuous” because I’ve been with a few people in my life. I am not promiscuous nor “loose” nor any other negative name any man wants to slap on me, and I resent hearing women referred to in such terms because I find it demeaning and debasing to all women. From some of the comments here you’d think we’d gone back to the 1950s. Next thing you know we’ll told we should dress like fundamentalist Muslim women and wear clothing to hide all of our bodily parts lest we be looked upon as “promiscuous”. This is chauvanism, people, and a throwback to a time I thought we’d long evolved away from. Obviously I was wrong.

I don’t believe in the notion that there’s a “perfect” mate out there for each and every one of us. Relationships are based on trying to weigh the positives over the negatives. If one’s sexual past is a big negative for someoneone, then he/she should figure out if there are positives that more than make up for it. If there are, then work to come to terms with the negative(s). If not, be honest and move on.

Mike, your analogy of past promiscuity being like past drug addiction is off the mark. They’re entirely different dynamics and consequences. Obviously, a past drug addition of a potential mate would be a big turn off for you. But again, the insight one may obtain from such experience could also be a viewed as a positive. It’s all how one chooses to judge another’s experiences, which brings us again to “freedom of choice.”

Mike, I agree with you point completely.

If a man at that point chooses to move on because she doesn’t fall into his choices for life, I think it’s important for the distinction to be made that it is HIS choice… HIS issue… and not that she is any less of a person or is in need of forgiveness.

But hopefully if this were only a matter of preference & choice, and not fragile male ego or warped sense of entitlement, then he could gently & truthfully explain that he wants something different – not better, just different – and move on.

Would it hurt her? Absolutely. But “I’m sorry, I have different preferences for a long term relationship” doesn’t hurt nearly as bad as “I’m sorry, you are soiled and not a good person, and your past has ruined your future. You’re not good enough for me.”

Doug, I disagree. If you do anything to hurt someone that you love, regardless of history, present or future, regardless of anything, you apologize for it. And when will everyone learn that judging is part of being human and allows us to make choices. Its not something we want to do without! We cannot tell people when they can and when they cant judge.

Brian.

However, people still have to be responsible for their own actions at some point. It’s unfortunate when a person has to begin their romatic/sexual development with a history of severe sexual trauma. But IMHO what you’re doing at 17-20 is essentially still your own decision regardless of what may have happened to you in your childhood or early teens. It’s not a perfect world this way, but we have to draw the line somewhere. Excusing those who could not yet adequately handle themselves at 17 is a nice thing to do for some, but it also works to punish those who struggled mightily and DID manage to handle themselves at 17.

Our society has more or less decided to hold kids accountable for their decisions once they reach 18 years old at the latest. Driving cars, working jobs, signing contracts, buying cigarettes & guns, etc. I see no reason for sexual issues to be different.

(The drinking age is a unique case. That age is only so high to provide a little more of a “buffer” between the alcohol and younger kids, and to separate the start of drinking from the start of driving a little more. Otherwise we’d probably make that legal at 16-18 years old as well.)

You said something that was a little scary to me. You said that you don’t want your secret to haunt you for the rest of your life, but keeping it buried inside in going to do the opposite of what you want.

I’d like to recommend a book that really helped me clear out a bunch of old garbage from my closet…

It’s called “Feelings Buried Alive Never Die” by Karol Truman. A REALLY great book!

A completely fulfilling relationship requires honesty and trust on both sides – that means that you have to be honest with your partner and talk about the hard stuff. You have to be honest with yourself and take responsibility for these old feelings and emotions.

If your partner truly loves you, sharing your past will only bring you closer together. If your partner is the judgemental type and will persecute you for your past, we say move on and find someone who will love you for who you really are and ALL of your life experiences have made you who you are.

My story:

I was born to an un-wed teenage mother. When I was 9, my mother had a live-in boyfriend who molested me. No, I was not raped, but just about everything short of rape occured. My mother married him 3 months after I confided in her about what was going on. Ofcourse, the molestation stopped. But the torment didn’t. At 12, I had my first “consentual” sexual encounter. At 14, I officially became sexually active. I’m 23, and I’ve had over 40 sexual partners to date.

In no way am I excusing my actions. But it hardly seems fair to say that one’s sexual past defines them as a person. Yes, at any given time, I could have said “No”, I don’t want to be this person. Well, that time was about a year ago. Unfortunately for me, it was too late for my now ex-boyfriend, whom I loved dearly. He told me that that behavior was not “normal” and that I should seek counseling. Perhaps. But IF he supposedly loved me for me, what does my ugly, ugly past have to do with our current, healthly relationship?

The issue over lying is also questionable. He says that he is more angry over the fact that I lied in the begining when we first had the numbers conversation. Okay, we were like a month into the relationship. I don’t think that “HI, my name is *blah*, and I’ve slept with over 40 people!” would have went over well. So I lied. But when the secret became too much to bear, when I know it meant so much to him, I confessed…and was dumped. Heartbreak is an understatement…

But readers…please! What do I do now??!! Who would ever want someone like me??

I said all this to say…Never, and I do mean never! will I ever confess to that horrible horrible past of mine. It’s over, I’m different. Only by the grace of God (yes, I am saved now) did I make it out of that lifestyle unscathed. But I WILL NOT allow it to haunt me for the rest of my life.

Thanks for Reading.

Oh, and yes, I’m still crying over my ex who dumped me.

Who says that the boyfriend in the original post wasn’t just as sexually-inactive as he assumes/wants his girlfriend to have been?

Fully how everyone automatically assumes that the boyfriend must automatically just be a hypocrite if he has a strong feeling about the issue. If I didn’t know better, I might be annoyed that the MEN are being discriminated against by this line of assumptions & thinking . . .

Both genders have sexual preferences that can be weaknesses. But women’s weaknesses are often treated as lovable quirks to be worked with & embraced for what they are. Men’s preferences are shown little of that basic respect. They’re more often seen as stupid things to be embarrassed about that any “mature” man would get over & ignore. ”

Mike, I think some of your answers are a little biased in your perspective. There are many things a woman could do with men that would earn her ridicule even amongst other women. If a woman “robs the cradle” with a minor other women don’t say “You go girl” but see her as “having issues”. Same is true for the gold digging woman and the woman who seeks a “sugar daddy”. I don’t know too many women who would see such women primarily as ‘victims’ or having little endearing quirks!

When it comes to mens’ issues, I am talking about cases in which what a man wants is a put down to women in general, or the acting out of a double standard that keeps women in a subordinate or oppressed and unfulfilling position. For instance, if a man follows his basic instinct of self-satisfaction in bed with a woman he will not pay much attention to her needs, concentrating instead on his goal directed behavior and what he might get out of it. Sure, that’s a basic instinct, but there is another person involved here who has needs too. Men who don’t somehow get beyond their basic instincts in that regard would in my opinion deserve to be told to grow up and “get over” them. And yes, I have known quite a few men who would fit that bill. It is not until relatively recently in our Western society that men have learned to pay any attention to womens’ sexual needs. For most of history sex was all about a man’s satisfaction and women didn’t have any right to have any of their sexual needs attended to by their partners in that area. In fact most men believed women didn’t have sexual needs at all. If that didn’t serve their own egos or “instincts” I don’t know what does.

“While I appreciated her candor, for me it was and is a non-issue. What difference does it really make if my wife had been with one or 100 other men (and women) before me? Neither of us were virgins, and the double standard should have disappeared years ago. “

Hey Clyde, thank you for that very refreshing perspective.

Fact is, you’re in love with your partner for the person they are today. And they are in this place largely because of the sum of their choices and experiences. To be judgmental of your partner’s past is a recipe for trouble.

For many men it’s also a deeply ingrained insecurity when they think of “all the other men before me”. Usually they get mad and hurt and don’t realize what the core problem is, but often it is this insecurity problem. Of course, like most other issues, that’s just something to be worked through – if the man is willing to do that.

It’s surprising, but even today we still have a very significant cultural double standard toward women and sexuality.

A lot of men down deep expect women to be pristine and “untouched” before them, like buying something at the store and expecting the safety wrapper to be in place, to keep it fresh “just for him”. And that attitude is unfortunately placing women in a place of second class citizens, certainly not equal to men as intelligent, independent adults who are fully capable of making their own choices – including who they have sex with. Also this view is just no longer representative of our reality today.

I took issue with the word “slut” being used on this thread earlier by some of the more judgmental men. In part because this is name calling, but more so because society doesn’t call men “sluts” when they have sex with dozens and dozens of women. Usually it’s more of a “you go man! that’s cool!”.

This is just a societal bias that is changing in time, as most double standards, arrogance and bigotry change with the evolution of a society.

And then again, any man can of course choose to not have sex with anyone but his future wife, and he can set those same expectations of his future mate – but a double standard is very unhealthly.

Have an awesome day!
Dan & Jennifer

My wife initiated this conversation when we were dating and beginning to develop a relationship. She wanted me to know and hopefully be comfortable, that while single she was sexually active, and had many partners before me, as this subject had come up during her first marriage and caused problems for her ex-husband. (She is 45, and I am 37–this my first marriage). My wife is a very intelligent and attractive profesional woman, who considers herself independent and sexually-liberated. She makes no apologies for her enjoyment of sex, and never saw anything wrong or immoral about having sex just for the pleasure of it, with anyone that she was attracted to (provided that neither was in a committed relationship, and they were safe). It also came up that during a particularly “wild period” when she was doing the club scene after her divorce, she and a roommate had sometimes experimented with members of both sexes, and more than one partner. While she didn’t give any specific number, and I did not ask, she did suggest that it was well more than the number of my partners that I volunteered, around 25.

While I appreciated her candor, for me it was and is a non-issue. What difference does it really make if my wife had been with one or 100 other men (and women) before me? Neither of us were virgins, and the double standard should have disappeared years ago. And while undoubtedly I am not the best lover, handsomest, biggest, etc. of the men she has been with, so what? We have a wonderful relationship and a great sex life, which are things that really count. Plus, I appreciate the experience she brings to the bedroom, and her sincere enthusiasm for our love-making. We are constantly trying things that are new to me, and I also find it very arousing to hear her recount some of her more erotic experiences. What can I say. I am lucky to have such a hot, exciting woman.

If the writer’s new man cannot accept her past due to some moral, confidence, and/or jealously problems, then I think that is his issue. But I am sure there are lots of other men out there who feel as I do, so the sooner she finds out, the better.

I really respect several of your viewpoints, including the one for the primary topic of this discussion. I really see eye-to-eye with you on that.

But I would just like to say that as a male, I REALLY get sick and tired of the “ego” thing. We’re talking about all kinds of opinions & preferences which are absolutely hard-wired into most males’ minds. It only looks like “ego” to those who aren’t hard-wired to care so much.

Women don’t mind when the culture accepts them for dating older men while ridiculing the older men who are dating them. And women don’t mind when the culture paints them as victims for choosing one “bad boy” after another for the first decade of their romantic life, while the culture demonizes & ridicules the “ego-tripping,” “bad” men who date them.

Both genders have sexual preferences that can be weaknesses. But women’s weaknesses are often treated as lovable quirks to be worked with & embraced for what they are. Men’s preferences are shown little of that basic respect. They’re more often seen as stupid things to be embarrassed about that any “mature” man would get over & ignore.

I naturally like women who aren’t significantly more sexually-experienced than me. I also naturally like to eat food every day. Neither one is because of an “ego problem.”

— mike, with a lowercase “m”

I don’t know, but I am noticing that it’s not so much the number of men in a woman’s past that threatens a guy but how many more relative to him she’s had. My boyfriend and I estimate that we’ve each had at least 20-40 lovers in our respective pasts. That’s if we actually sat down and added them up, which we haven’t (what’s the point?). Most of this occurred in our 20′s (we are now 45 and 48 – he’s the younger one). Note that he’s not at all threatened by my revelation, probably because he knows he has a similar amount of lovers in his past, and he’s a fair and mature kind of guy who realizes these things are then, this is now.

But I can recall being on dates as recently as 4 years ago before I met him in which the topic of past partners came up and witnessing a couple of men act "blown away" when I gave them my estimate. I just hate the way guys act when their sexual egos are threatened. Honestly, this preoccupation with "am I the best/biggest lover you’ve ever had?" feels very juvenile to women. And I say that as someone who really genuinely tries to understand men and not judge them unfairly.

I personally think it goes back to the old proprietary attitude of men towards women – That women are property and therefore should be "new" and "unspoiled" off the rack like any new car on the showroom floor. They should be more experienced and be the "teacher" to the woman as "pupil". Hence the preoccupation with virgins, and acting threatened by a woman with a "past" that is more extensive than theirs. This actually comes out of the old double standard. I realize that men don’t actually choose to be this way, but I do think in general that they need to get up to speed on women as human beings in a sexual sense. OK, this proprietary attitude in the bedroom may be a vestige of something that is dying out, but I think men today owe it to women to work on getting over it. Just my humble opinion!

That said, I understand why the woman who asked the question here would be trepidatious about telling her boyfriend about her past. Given the way men generally act about such things, I worry about when and how to to reveal information, and just how much to reveal. I am NOT going to reveal how many lovers I’ve had who were bigger than my present boyfriend to him nor how many were more or less inhibited about certain things that I like. To do that would be cruel and unnecessary, IMO.

There is openness that is unnecessary and can be dealt with without comparisons that would cause hurt feelings. So in that sense I don’t think EVERYTHING should be revealed to a partner.

In this case, however, there are very compelling reasons she should have gotten over her trepidation and revealed this information to her boyfriend. His values were no secret to her. She knew how he felt about sex in general and therefore she should have known that witholding such information would be wrong. It looks to me like she withheld the information from him because deep down she knew the reaction would be very negative and that she would stand to lose the relationship. Given his background and his values, I agree with Peter and the others that she owed him that bit of information. In this case it’s really about him – How she feels about divulging the information is secondary to her moral obligation to tell him. This is information that has a bearing on the future of the relationship and for that reason she should have been up front with him from the getgo. Regardless of his ego and his reaction to the information from that perspective, she still owed him that information. I don’t believe that she did not know the possible outcome. In fact, I think that she was well aware of the possible outcome and that is a big reason why she never divulged the information after 5 months (which is way too long to wait, IMO. I do think people should tell early on, perhaps not on the first date but as soon as things seem to be taking a somewhat more serious turn).

I don’t know if Peter is still listening, but I was extremely impressed with his posts in this thread. Peter, you and I have a lot in common. I am a student of Ethics and Philosophy (I have an undergrad. degree in it) and a Master’s in Counseling Psych. The only place where we disagreed in any substantial way is when you went off on the double standard and how in many cases it’s really no advantage to men. I tend to disagree. From a woman’s point of view, even those things that look like disadvantages to men are really in place to serve their egos and are therefore for their benefit in the end. That a man would take a bullet rather than see a woman get hurt is all a part of the oppression of women in the sense that his ego is served by making him feel like the protector of the "weaker" sex. And women in those situations don’t get equal chance to enjoy protecting others if that is their chosen role. It is mostly men that seem concerned over whether women should serve in active duty in the military and do other "risky" jobs. Women just want to be able to do whatever they feel they want to do. But men seem to think they should be able to dictate what a woman should and shouldn’t want to do with her life, her body, her aspirations, her sex life, you name it. So your argument unfortunately has a lot of holes in it.

I do wish that Dan and Jennifer would respond to your question about who the philosophers are that they refer to in this statement: “Some philosophers say that’s what life is really about – experiencing life so that we can discover who we truly want to be.” Perhaps they were alluding to some sort of existentialism or phenomenalism? A process philosophy? It would have to be somore sort of philosophy that claims that we don’t really come into self knowledge save by our trial and error experience. Sounds somewhat existential, but I am rusty, LOL. I don’t know, but I too would like to hear a response from them on this.

I could respond to more but there is just so much here, so I will cut this short now, as I’ve gone on long enough, LOL. Great blog, great post and great posters! Thanks to Dan and Jennifer for this site!

First of all, this is not a moral issue but an issue of psychological programming. I’m going to guess that the the man was brainwashed early on by conservative christian (maybe catholic?) dogma (been there, done that), and two- the young lady has probably either had great insecurities or has been sexually abused or neglected in her younger years. Because I don’t think the woman’s experiences were necessarily “immoral”, I will give advice from an amoral (pragmatist) perspective. My advice to the woman is, if you really love him and want to keep him, then you absolutely MUST lie, but make sure he will NEVER discover the truth (i.e., you don’t have any genital warts, talkative friends, etc.) if you want to keep him.

I am forced to agree with some other posters that it is, in fact, his business, which is why it is all the more important for you to lie. Let me give you an example. If you were buying a “new” car and paying full price, and later found out that it wasn’t new but had been on lease and had been involved in a serious crash and repaired, wouldn’t you be upset? But if the car was fixed up perfectly (though they never are in real life) and you never knew, then how would it affect you? The thing is, the man in this situation most likely will find out, even if he has the naiveté of someone who would actually believe that a young woman over age 18 nowadays had only had 3 partners (and not in Saudi Arabia, either). If he finds out, it certainly justifies a divorce from his perspective. I would suggest however that he is not the right man for her. She should find somebody who’s older, has an easy-going personality, and has been a wild playboy in his youth and has “got it out of his system” (someone whos “number” is even higher) and who will not have grounds for feeling cheated. That way, she will not have to tolerate the burden of having to lie to sustain the relationship. Plus, a playboy is likely to be much better for her in certain situations, if you know what I mean. As for the man, for his happiness I hope he hasn’t a clue (he doesn’t sound like he would) but on the other hand, I hope if he does find out he will have the strength to break it off before he marries her and destroys the young lady’s heart. She deserves better than to be put through hell over things which she can no longer change. You see, he will never love you as much as he did before, if he finds out. And in that event, he shouldn’t be made to feel guilty for feeling that way either, because it is who he is- he probably can’t change at this late date. I’m not saying this out of anger or self-righteousness, but out of concern and from the depths of experience. Don’t listen to the self-righteous jesus bunch, they are the ones promoting this problem by making sex a sin and stressing phony virtues like “chastity” which are rotten relics of bronze age military patriarchy.

If you really, really love him, beyond your own personal need for happiness, then leave him, because he has some growing up still to do, and the hurt will help him grow. But if you want to keep him, you must be a liar for the duration of the relationship. Isn’t that a lot of emotional stress to put yourself through? It just seems to me that you would be better off with somebody else entirely.

If you don’t listen to me, then listen to Nelly.

P.S., as for Jill who claimed that a man said he left her because she didn’t have enough experience, I am smiling right now to know the ease with which some men are still able to lie to a woman’s face (I wish I was like that)! I would suggest that perhaps he left Jill because, as they say, “he’s just not into you!” Perhaps it was a matter of physical appearance or something touchy like that. Any man, even an ageing playboy, is happy to get ahold of a lady with low miles. I didn’t make that rule, so please don’t shoot the messenger.

Choosing a major romantic partner is possibly the most important decision a person can make in their entire lives. So causing a person to make that choice based on misleading information is tantamount to robbing them of the ability to control their own life.

IMHO, this particular thread is NOT an issue about whether men are too obsessed with their partner’s histories at all. This is an issue about whether it’s morally acceptable to rob someone else of their freedom of choice just because you stand to lose if they made an informed decision.

One partner’s desire for a relationship DOES NOT justify stealing the other partner’s right to control their own life.

Thank you for your perspective – very well stated…

After having read the entire post for about a couple of hours there are a few observations that I have:

Almost everyone agrees that it is critical for the respected lady in question here to tell the truth to her guy and I believe that even the lady understands this. However people have disagreed on the ways and means to do that, I agree with Peter’s perspective that the guy deserves to know the “Truth” as he is investing a lot of time and emotional energy into this relationship and he is entitled to his judgments about her and “It is both NORMAL and NATURAL and FAIR to judge a person”. However at the same time we need to understand that that her past sexual conduct is not the entire “Truth”. The entire truth would comprise of her past experiences, her learning’s from the past experiences which is displayed by her current conduct and most importantly her future “Intensions” behind this relationship. It is fairly clear that by posting this query in this forum the lady has expressed that her conscience is alive and has forced her to think about telling the truth to her partner, this is where Bethany’s perspective comes into play to give her some time to “Prove” herself before the truth is disclosed and also to prepare herself for the worst. I believe this is beneficial for both as the guy would have the “Complete Truth” and the lady would have had her chance to prove herself.

We need to understand here that different people have different nature and different backgrounds and their approach to dealing with “A” situation may vary, what is most important is not the action itself but the “Intensions” behind the actions and it is those intensions that really determine the future behavior of the person.

Ok, how does her morality make that decision? If he didn’t tell her and they were very compatible as a couple, why does his previous actions change that compatibility? I’ve said before, everything we do and everything we’ve done helps to create the person we are today. If you like that person today, you can’t criticize what they’ve done in the past, because without that, they’d be a different person. I have no regrets in my life because I’m very happy where I am and had I changed even the simplist of things, I’d be somewhere different.
Now, I understand what you’re saying to one degree. If you choose not to get involved with someone that you might know ahead of time to have had sexual partners of some number that you would find unacceptable, then that makes sense. But in actuality, that has nothing to do with your compatibility.
Now, all that being said, I think what you’re saying will resonate with everyone to some degree. Your unacceptable number of previous sexual partners might be 1, but for someone else it might be 10 or 100, but I think we all will have some number of previous sexual partners that will make us stop and think for a minute or even walk away. So, I think we all just might disagree as to where that line is, rather than complete disagreement.
Fun topic though.

Btw, Dan and Jenifer, you might want to do a topic on prostitution with all this in the news regarding the DC Madamn. Just a thought, but what a fun topic that would be!!

However, I think I could have worked things out with someone who was not that, including my wife.

The lie did a tremendous amount of damage because when the truth was made known about five years later, the past became present–for me at least. For my wife–she was unburdening things from years ago. For me–I suddenly had several former lovers of my wife’s in the living room and in the bedroom with me. And I was treated to endless porno movies in my mind, with my wife being the star.

“This is who I am. This is what I did. I leave that all in the past and wish I had waited for you. They were mistakes. But I love you, and will be loyal to you forever.”

If she had said something like the above in the BEGINNING, then I would not have any reason to complain now. I would have been given a choice, and the only fair thing to have done would have been to reject her, or accept her, and never mention her past to her again.

I don’t know what I would have done. I think I would have wanted to work it out with her and go forward, but I would have been a lot slower about getting involved sexually with her.

You state “Mature responsible adults should be free to have sexual encounters without worry that someone will judge them as immoral.”
– Yes, they are free to do so and they will also stand and be judged for that action. They face the consequences of the freedom of that choice. You, me or anyone else do not have the right to tell others whether or not they get to judge us. People will judge you and do every day hundreds of times as do you them. Every act a person engages in comes with the understanding that they will be held accountable for that act and face the consequences of it. It means that you accept the fact that you may find the love of your life, your soul mate and they will reject you for your promiscuity before them. For your failure to show both them and yourself any respect. A person is not required to forgive and forget as so many seem to believe.

“You think his sexual past is something to be ashamed of.” — That is his choice, but he will be judged for it and be held accountable for it, in this case by Robin and possibly in the future by his next partner.

“but that compatibility isn’t based on the number of sexual partners you’ve had” — Not really our decision to make is it RR? Her morality makes that decision. For her, and many others it is the number and general behavior that is used to evaluate compatibility and or desirability. Personally, I have no desire to be with a woman who disrespects herself so much. How am I to respect them when they do not respect themselves?

“John, I feel you’re applying rather strict criteria for the year 2007 (or even 1987 for that matter).”
—Morality, right and wrong has no expiration date. Just because it is popular to be this way now, does not make it any more correct. It was popular to kill jews in Germany not all that long ago, was it RIGHT, was it MORAL. NO! But it sure was popular back in the 40′s in Germany.

“I also feel you are being rather harsh on your wife for her 3 or so relationships prior to your arrival on the scene.”
— You seem to be missing the point. I do not believe that John is upset with the history (He may have been if offered this information when it was due him), rather the LIE that was given to him. HIS choice to leave her based on HIS MORALITY was taken away because of her selfishness. He flat out asked her, she knew it was important to him and she chose to LIE. That is the issue. She feared loosing him due to HER previous actions and took away HIS right to chose what HE wanted. This is called avoiding accountability and SELFISHNESS!

How would any of you feel if your partner did not tell you they had herpes and had sex with you, and you contracted this STD because they CHOSE to take away your CHOICE to NOT have sex with them or be with them? This is what we are talking about here. The OTHER PERSONS RIGHTS to chose to decide whether or not to stay with you. This suggestion of selfishly taking this away for your own benefit at their expense is very disturbing.

“These should not be seen as mistakes or reasons for regret” —Regret is based on the repercussions of ones actions. If she had lost him due to her lie and or promiscuity, a man she truly loved, then this is a regret and a mistake.

http://www.lightyourfire.com/i-am-horrified-by-my-wifes-sexual-history.htm

RR: Thank you for your responses. To clarify, while I prefer sex within the context of marriage, I am also open to sex within a long-term, committed relationship sans marital vows.

My primary concern with my former boyfriend is that he has spent nearly all of his adult life engaging in physical acts with numerous women without regard to love, romance, the spiritual dimensions of sex, or commitment. For him, his choices have been based on the pleasure principle–his pleasure–and that’s all. Morality never entered into the equation.

He says that he grew tired of picking up women because it no longer brought him pleasure. He also claims that chronic health problems (which have impaired his sexual functioning), participation in various men’s therapy groups, and counselling have brought about changes so that he now wants to settle down. Maybe he is different. Suffice to say, I’m applying the test of time to this situation–a long time.

Your comments:
****You look at it as giving yourself totally to someone else. I don’t think the physical act it what gives of yourself totally. I think that’s something that’s an emotional / mental gift rather than a physical one. I think sex can be purely a physical act between two people that exists for pleasure.***

RR, I note your ability to “compartmentalize” yourself. Where are your head and heart while you are engaging your body in intimate acts? I cannot (do not) separate my head, heart, and body whilst having sex. I’m curious as to how you can withhold your heart and mind while indulging in sex–doesn’t that reduce the “pleasure” in your pleasures–in which case, what’s the point? Do you feel awkward in giving only partially of yourself?

btw…lest I sound like a religious zealot, I am not a churchgoer (except on holidays) but I do think about spiritual issues as they relate to the physical …

What initially attracted me to this discussion was the original question about two people who, obviously, have extraordinarily different values regarding sexual relationships. It’ll be interesting to see if the person who sent in the question let’s us know if she told her boyfriend and how he responded.

Again, I truly do look forward to following this discussion–

Robin

There is also nothing wrong with seeing sexual relations outside of marriage to be immoral.

From my perspective, it should be with only one person for life, unless someone dies, and then remarriage would be okay.

I DO have lots of problems with my wife’s previous exes BECAUSE they were immoral relationships. I wish she had had the integrety and restraint to wait for the right man and not give herself totally to someone else.

This blog is terrific–thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts.

As for the original question: Should she tell her boyfriend? My response is “Yes, she should!” Her boyfriend has the RIGHT to know how many men she’s been with. He obviously values chastity, honesty, and morality, and he has a right to be with someone who shares his values. The woman is dishonest, selfish and squandering her boyfriend’s time and heart. She should tell him the truth at once so that HE has the choice of exercising his RIGHT to court a far more compatible woman.

Some people in this group have suggested that women aren’t nearly as concerned about men’s pasts as men are about women’s. I beg to differ. I Googled this site because, as a woman, I am deeply concerned about a former boyfriend’s past. Briefly, back in 1981 and in 1987, he and I were an item. We parted ways and had no contact until November, 2006 when he looked me up in our school’s alumni directory and emailed me. We get along quite well, albeit at a two-thousand mile distance.

Our lives have taken quite different turns–between the time we parted ways 20 years ago and our reunion, I’ve had a lot of abstinence, lots of friendly dates, and exactly two sexual partners–longish-term (5- and 4-years apiece)in committed relationships. (We were engaged.) (I’ve had 6 partners total–the rest occurred during a loose phase in the 80′s, which ended because I sought counseling and felt genuine remorse about how I had behaved.)

He, on the other hand, has admitted to spending the past two decades picking up strangers at bars–3 or 4 different women a week. (Oftentimes, the women were adulterous–he says he didn’t care about their relationship status). He admits that he and his buddies from work (he’s in senior management) often “shared” women from these bars–”OK…you do Martha tonight while I take Karen home. Tomorrow night, we’ll switch.” He has had exactly one “committed” relationship these past two decades–it lasted less than a year and his partner left him for two other men.

What concerns me is that in all of our conversations he has never expressed remorse or regret about his behavior nor has he had a religious conversion. His lack of concern is troubling. Now, he says, he wants to “settle down”–with me. As you might imagine, I have some deep reservations. I suspect that aging, health concerns that have forced him to face his mortality, and frequent bouts with impotence (even with Viagra) have spurred his newly-found interest in marriage.

I am in no way jealous of his past–far from it, I think it’s pitiable. As for imagining him with this person or that one, that doesn’t bother me because my own experience indicates there’s an inverse relationship between being a great lover and the # of partners one has had–that is, people with very high #’s of partners tend to be lousy in bed. (Yes, the best lover I’ve ever had was a virgin.)

I believe that the context of one’s sexual involvements is very important. My concern is (not unlike that of the “he” in the original question) can someone who has indiscriminately been intimate with legions of persons become a moral, faithful, life-time partner (and a good lover)?

Suffice to say, all of your comments make me suspect that people are best off with compatible souls, which means being with someone who is compatible in terms of sexual mores as well…

I look forward to your responses–

Robin

My opinion sounds short: EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE, BUT SOMETIMES A WHITE LIE IS NEEDED.

Sharing with our current partners about our exes is, say, dangerous. Let me explain. I loved a man. I loved’im very much. And once I did a mistake. I told him the number and even the NAMES of my previous lovers. Each time when something went wrong with us, our relationship, our sex life, I was asked the same thing, "Denis was better than me huh?!, or "Eric was hotter than me yeah?!", or "So, dear, whose tool was bigger?" and similar stuff that offended me and made me regret.

Yes, NO DOUBT, "open and honest communication in a relationship is vital". But everything is relative. Many things vary from person to person, from couple to couple. Still taking in account the temper of your mate is important. Mine was jealous – that’s why it was wrong to be open with him about my sexual experience.

Sometimes you have to be a good PSYCHOLOGIST to decide what is wrong, what is right in this or that situation.

Sometimes secrets and white lie aren’t bad friends of yours.

Still… It all depends…

Dan and Jen, you’re GREAT.

Truly yours, Nelly

I aplogize for my previous testy response to you.

I think the problem for me is that I didn’t really deal with it in the beginning. I supressed it. And I felt I had no choice. I had to stay for the sake of my son. And I did love her in spite of what she put me through.

My relationship with her is more complex and involved than I could possibly detail here, and I doubt anyone would want to wade through it all, anyway.

I think the bottom line is that we did not have a strong loving marriage. I thought we did, but I think I was fooling myself.

We had two children to raise and lots of activities, and that held things together, I think.

But my thinking now is that we had a house built on a fissure, and not on solid ground.

And I think my wife’s previous relationships might have contributed to that. I think that her premarital affairs might have damaged her in some way and made her incapeable of having a giving and loving relationship with me.

And you’re probably right and I have thought of that myself–if she had kept the lie to herself, maybe somehow I would have found out years later, and maybe that would have made it worse.

The bottom line is now she is ill, very overweight and unattractive to me (was once the most beautiful woman in town), we have had no sex life for years, she has had many issues with anger and meanness, and we are cold and distant with each other.

I am sure she has some psychological problems and she is going to need some help very soon.

I feel trapped in a very bad situation now. And the trap started many years ago with her lie.

It was all about what was best for her. There was no thought about me. She wanted and needed love, and I did my best to provide it during our marriage, but she had little or none to give back.

And I wonder if that can be traced back to loveless sexual liasions.

Sorry…I’m not a happy camper right now.

John,

Let me first start off by apologizing for my first post. I responded quicky and directly to a question you had posted without fully understanding your dilemma. In your last post, you unselfishly shared the situation you and your wife find yourself in, and I think I speak for anyone reading in saying thank you for that openness.
Let me also say that I’ll never be able to be as clear or concise or write as eloquently as J Scott, so please bear with me as best you can.
You talk about how you envision the two bodies together and wonder how she could walk away without taking some of that person with her. Let me give you a piece of advice my wife has said. If you’re happy with where you are, you can’t regret anything in your past. If you love your wife for who she is now, you have to remember that the experiences she had before meeting you, helped create the woman that you fell in love with and continue to love to this day.
Every person that we meet, especially ones we interact with intimately (not just sexual interatction, but anyone we share emotions with) gives us a piece of themself and hopefully we give to them as well. I know that from this board, I feel I’ve gotten a piece of many people that I’ve conversed with, both good and bad. We don’t get to choose who touches us in that way (again, not physically) it’s something that just happens.
One thing you said that I feel is very telling as to why you’re having these feeling again after they had been somewhat under control for so long. You said you and your wife haven’t been intimate for over three years. I can imagine that loss of sexual intimacy can, over time, decrease the closeness that you feel toward your wife. Sex is an important part of a marriage and this kind of extended abstinance can create problems. Is it possible that your loss of intimacy with your wife has forced your mind to review past intimacies with her and that in turn brings up the thoughts of her past intimacies?
You mentioned that for health reasons you can’t have sexual relations, and then follow up with it having to do with being against contraception. It’s odd you bring this up, as I’m having a long discussion on another board here regarding this exact subject. One thing you might want to consider, and let me make clear, I’m not catholic, however isn’t marital abstinance a form of birth control? If that’s agreed, wouldn’t a condom be an equal form of BC? If so, and that could help bring closeness to your relationship, you might want to consider what is more important. I don’t want to question something so personal as your faith or beliefs, just something to consider.
You also call these earlier sexual encounters affairs. Is it possible that’s how you see them? Do you weigh them the same as had they occured while you were together? Just a thought.

My wife and I have not been toghther sexually for the past three plus years. It might have appeared that I meant that happened in the beginning of our relationship.

And to bring up another issue, which probably has a lot to do with ego, but it’s a real feeling–it bothers me that ther are other men out there who have my wife as part of their experience. It bothers me that they could think back to their youth about that beautiful shapely blonde they were with who is my wife.

I wonder how I would feel if I were to ever meet any of these men. I know that in the beginning I hated them with a passion.

Regarding why men seem to view women’s past sexual indiscretions, or even discretions if you will, with more “angst” than women do about men’s… I do have some thoughts.

The simple, less rational one first: I think there is something built into us – whether from thousands of years of society or something else – that says men can be forgiven for multiple partners and women can’t. To give you a visual, if you put your finger into a glass of water, you can pull your finger out, wipe it off and move on. The water however has been changed permanently. Whatever you had on your finger is now part of the water. In the Bible, God allowed men to have multiple wives; but a woman who had more than one man was condemned for adultery. I really believe it had to do with the spread of seed and the ability for a man to do as he would, and as long as a woman belonged to one man only, there was no doubt as to fatherhood. That’s kind of off subject, but the point is that I think there is something that goes way back that says it’s different for men vs women.

Okay, now my more logical, from experience thoughts. Women aren’t immune to comparing themselves to their husband/boyfriend’s past lovers. We also aren’t always the ones who forgive and forget, who accept with grace and move past it. Let’s not go to the other extreme and stereotype women as being impervious to these problems.

Here’s my own experience. When my husband and I were just dating, every once in a while a name of an ex would come up in his conversation. I knew back then that I wanted to know him – all of him, including his past. I encouraged him to continue an anecdote that he would cut off out of courtesty to me, since it involved an ex. Occasionally this involved sex. I discovered through conversation that one particular girl he dated for FIVE YEARS was quite a firecracker in bed. She was creative, petite, beautiful breasts… the perfect lover. I found all of this out by asking… not in a weird way, just by encouraging conversation and openness between us.

Through the years (I’ve been married 7 years) I have at times wondered how much better she was than I am. I’ve caught a look on his face or heard him ask for something involving sex and wondered, “Did she do this for him?” Sometimes I have even asked him if anyone (that meant her, in my head) had ever done “that” for him. So I too have done my share of comparing. I’ve moved past that, for the most part – I still catch a thought sometimes, but I no longer ask for that reassurance from him. He’s more than proven that he loves me, and regardless of who was “better” in bed, no one could duplicate the chemistry we have together.

I think the big difference here is that I accepted his past sexual history as part of the man I was growing to love. Was it pure? No. I was not his first. I’m not disclosing any more about his past here, but I did not struggle with condemning or judging him. A woman’s struggle, or at least mine, revolves around “Does he love me? Am I enough?”

If there is enough emotional relationship, women probably have no problem moving past the sexual history. Some will probably judge and react harshly, but I think for the most part women just want to know that they are accepted for who they are, and they can in turn accept the people in their lives as such. I still think a big part of this goes back to the engrained psychology, though.

Society is evolving, and you men out there are playing a big part in it with how you respond and react to a woman’s previous sexual history. Logically it SHOULD be the same for men & women, but I just don’t think we’re there yet with the mindsets that we feed ourselves or that are fed to us. Don’t be too hard on yourself – just respond to it the right way!

RR, your an ** offensive comment edited out – Please refrain from name calling or personal attacks. D & J **.

How anyone can say he is a "baby" for having his feelings. They are what they are and to suggest that yours are of better quality is insulting at best! You are by no means worthy of offering advice. He was LIED to and intentionally deceived!

John, I am sorry for your situation and have experienced all the same emotions and feelings your are right now. You are not alone in your feelings.

Thank you for your thougtful and compassionate response.

I’ll ponder what you said.

Yes you are very close to guessing my age–50.

And yes, I am not a saint and my virginity when I met my wife was in a large part because of shyness.

I do remember as a young man having crushes and interests and then when I would find out that Mary or Jane did this or that with Tom or Jerry, then I would feel hurt and write them off my mental list. I couldn’t imagine being with someone who had been with someone else.

Since I have been married I have noticed others and have had attractions for others and have had lust at times, and I’m sure my wife has been much more mentally faithful than I have been.

Intellectually, so much of what you say resonates with me.

But then…thinking about two bodies together–receiving and giving pleasure to each other–bonding emotionally and physically–giving each other permission to touch and relate to the most intimate parts–it seems so “hard core”–so huge. It seems unbelievable that either could then walk away from the other and move onto someone else, without bringing a part of that person along with them.

So I sometimes feel those other men are a part of my life. Especially in the beginning it was very hard.

There had been times in our relationship when I was able to put it in the distance–when it didn’t bother me so much. Other things were happening in my life that were going well.

But it was over 7,000 days ago that she gave me that news and I bet there have been only two or three of those days that it did not enter my mind or that I did not think about it.

When I was first going with my wife I told her that I wanted to wait until marriage to have sexual relations. But she didn’t want to wait. She said it would make her feel “more secure” to start sooner, and I gave into that temptation. I have to assume responsibility for saying yes–she did not point a gun at my head–but I thought she was a virgin when she proposed that. Since she had been involved with others she knew what she was doing, and I soon found myself with a new pleasure in my life, but a new need as well. I didn’t know how addictive sex would be.

But my wife and i have not had sexual relations for over three years because of some of her health problems, a risk of pregnancy, and beleifs which preclude contraception or abortion.

I did not believe it would be so long when it first started, but two interesting things happened. I found that I actually could live without having sex. The addictiveness of it eventually wore off. Yes–I would like to have that intimacy again, but I can live without it if I have to. Second, thoughts about my wife’s previous affairs came back to haunt me with a vengance.

I had gotten them to a manageable level. I never got over it, but I learned to live with it.

But now I think about her affairs again, and I do not understand why the mental pictures have come back to torment me once more. And I think about the deception and how cruel that was.

I never really had the opportunity to express my feelings to my wife in the beginning. She knew I was hurt, but if I expressed it she would turn the tables and play the victim and call herself a “whore” and make life miserable, so I kept it to myself as much as possible.

Now that my children are grown and there seems to be nothing to lose, I have told her how I felt and we have had some emotional exchanges about it. I sometimes think it could end up breaking up our marriage.

I want to get to the point of either doing what was once unthinkable–walking away–or finding a way to deal with it and move on, and not look back.

I hope that none of you mind here that I am using this forum to vent my emotions. As you can see, this was something that was very hurtful and something that is still causing pain.

Today, there is much tragedy in the news with that horrible shooting spree, and there will be more bad news tomorrow and I wonder what right I have to be so hurt by this when it seems so small compared to what others have to endure.

I have to say that I very much identify with your comments on how our mind works when we think of the person we love with another. Questions like “I wonder if she enjoyed it with him?” or “Was he bigger? and “Did she enjoy it?” and “Is there still any emotional bond between them?” are all the things that prey upon our ego (fear) as men. And then how do you deal with the feelings that occur when you are reminded of this which in today’s society happens almost daily. This all depends upon where you start when you examine this. I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are close to my 47 years and probably hedge closer to 50. Fair?

This sets up a whole new dynamic since you are from a generation when the idea of being a virgin for your future spouse was still somewhat important since the summer of love had happened and free love was kind of passé at that point. Sex still did happen in high school and later so this was an alternative to the more conservative path. We all have to make choices in our lives and sometimes we make good ones and sometimes not so good. Your wife of some 20 + years now shared something with you that she was not truthful about initially and she carried that guilt. This is the dilemma and what do you do about or with the feelings that this revelation has created.

First I would agree that you are expressing some basic insecurities we all deal with as men and size or ability are two big ones (pun intended). I can tell you from my own experience that I am not a “big man” but adequate. And as far as skill goes I would say that I have actually bettered myself with age and wisdom. These area all things you can address yourself through reading and becoming a perpetual student of love and life if you are concerned that you might not be first in her mind when it comes to performance and pleasure. I would first suggest the book “She comes first” by Ian Kerner and others in that vein. You will never regret the effort to become a more purposeful and giving lover no matter what the outcome of your present relationship.

These fears are all ego based and you need to understand that these are always going to be present. What you are concerned with is will she somehow remember a past lover and want them over you or will this memory somehow make you seem inadequate to her. Even if she did enjoy it that was before she even knew you and I would hope that you would understand that there were probably many reasons that she made these choices and that she even told you she regretted it.

To this I would ask you who is she with today? Think about the why of that. What has she done in the past 20 years to show you the depth of her love for you? Baring and raising your children is a very high sign of love. I’ll bet there are many, many more. But back to the pain point here. When these things present themselves to your mind just reaffirm your love for her. You chose her for some reason and while she made a mistake in the past – her actions – telling you about them and risking her relationship with you was also a sign of love. She risked everything to tell you the truth.

Granted you had children and this made the break up less likely but she did tell you. If you look at the sum total of the relationship and if she has been truthful to you since then you need to understand that she is worthy of your returning that love. Set aside your negative, ego driven thoughts – yes it is hard to do and something most of us face – and see her for who she is, a loving caring person who made a mistake or two in her life. So unless you can say that you are a saint and perfect in every way then you have to believe that she loves you in spite of those flaws. You may have been a virgin at marriage but what other bumps in your life exist, moral or otherwise.

I can certainly testify that my experience brought all of the same feelings that you pointed out here and I felt like you read my mind. But while my lady told me the truth yours did not. It is only another mistake and in the time frame you married and judging from your conservative perspective it is no wonder that she chose to hide the truth. If she is a good woman in all other ways then forgive her. People do change and grow and your ability to accept this and forgive her out of your love as a man is a potential growth expereince for you. If you two are struggling with this, which it sounds like is the case, then get counseling. If you can share your feelings with her without moral judgment – which is your ego raising its ugly head – then you can grow closer. I respect you and your search to understand and share these feelings and gain perspective. I have grown from your sharing as I have from all the other posts here – Paul, Bethany, Fred, Sutton, Mike, Peter, Jill and PR – and appreciate the forum.

In the end it is all about love. Can we love someone so much that we can overcome our ego driven fears and get to a place where we truly and deeply love someone for exactly who they are? That is the question. When those fears pop up or those doubts arise then you need to understand that you have made choices and mistake in your life of different degrees and your significant other accepts you despite them. As long as you can honestly and openly share your feelings and take care of each other’s feelings and love each other you are on the right path. Love is not a blanket thing with violins and roses 24/7. It involves real work and pain to get what we all want, a truly loving relatioship based on trust and understanding that really works.

And I would like to hear from the women as well on the subject of why they see men’s sexual indiscretions with less angst than men see theirs. Is it the virility thing, ie. if they are highly sought then they must be virile and successful? Bethany your thoughts?

Somehow, I must have given the impression that I have been giving my wife a hard time about this for all these years, which is not true.

I kept it bottled up inside of me for most of those years and I didn’t bring it up because I knew how upsetting it was to her, and I didn’t want her freaking out in front of our children.

But now that the children are grown and since we have been apart sexualy for several years because of some health problems she has, and because we also have had some marital difficulties, for some reasaon all that was supressed over the years has bubbled back to the surface, and it feels similar to those early couple years after she first revealed it to me.

The bottom line is that when you enter a relationship you should be truthful, or at least be a superb liar, and live the lie. Don’t lie to get someone and then think you are doing them a huge favor by confessing it after a relationship is built.

Exactly, J Scott.

How do I know nothing else has been concealed?

When the revelation came it was as if I had been living with a total stranger.

I don’t think you are so insightful as to be able to make a “promise” of that magnitude.

I might have some insecurities. I think you could say that about anyone and the odds would be heavily in your favor that you would be right, so you are not shedding much light on the sitution, but rather on your own ego.

Thank you for your honesty about not being a psychologist. But I figured that out before you said it.

I would also be aware that I am not new myself, but in the beginning I was not a hypocrite and have had no other sexual partners than my wife. I think sexual relationships should be special and be with one person for life, and I do not believe in double standanards–that it’s okay for the guy to fool around but the girl.

There is nothing wrong with believing that, and there is nothing wrong with striving for that ideal.

If it doesn’t happen by choice that is one thing. If it doesn’t happen because of deceit, that is another thing.

In my case, I was tricked. I was denied the opportunity to choose to overlook, understand, etc. It was all dumped on my after a relationship was established and a family had begun.

I would rather she remained pure until marriage. Next, I would rather she had told the truth from the beginning, and established a relationship built on truth and not a lie, and she should have had the courage to take the risk involved. Lastly, since she chose to lie, I would rather she kept the lie to herself and that I didn’t know. She should have confessed it to a priest instead of me. She did nothing good for me or our marriage by revealing it at that time.

If you as the person asking the questions first shut your ego off, look at the person with loving and understanding eyes and approach the conversation in a non-judgmental way you will be successful. This involves dropping all “moral” overtones and just listening and then asking questions in a fact based manner. To be sure there were some very difficult moments – mostly for my ego – but out of this we have come to a place where we are much closer and where there is a real foundation of honesty between us.

In my opinion the problem with not telling the truth and hiding things for any period of time is that the honesty and growth that might take place at the beginning of the relationship never happens. Then when shocking revelations happen at a later time the whole foundation of the relationship comes into question. “What else have you been lying about,” rings in one’s ears. While painful and difficult truth is essential to a true loving relationship. Love as a concept rests on this foundation of truth and without it love cannot truly grow, only an illusion of love.

Another thing that men must accept is the “trauma” to their ego that this person you deelply care for has been with others and perhaps in some ways we might not care to accept. Why? Because our ego has a hard time accepting that this person was with or enjoyed sex with men other than ourselves. This is a real blow to the male ego and is deeply rooted in genetics and cultural attitudes. We want to be the one and only but also hypocritically want the right to enjoy sex whenever or with whomever we choose. Women, the “marrying kind,” are supposed to be chaste until we show up and can be the only sex god in their life. If they have ever experimented or had other loves this is a threat to the ego only and not your health or potential progeny.

To build a relationship that works a man must be able to set his ego aside. Ladies if a man cannot understand when it’s just his ego talking and know when his heart needs to take over and listen to the truth and accept you for for the beautiful person you really are then you don’t want to be with him anyway. In the end it will very likely be something else later in the relationship ego-related that will break things up. The truth telling will be harger to do if you have a more active past but having that relationship based on truth is what you are really seeking, not something based on lies. Also if he has a very active past he may not be all that he seems to be either.

I would also suggest talking the man’s past beyond sex as this is a blind spot culturally. What other “bad” things has he done? I guarantee you will find a few that he may try to shrug off but this insight is critical to really knowing them. And who says that having past relationships is bad? There is a line for all of us as to what we are comfortable with and that is truly individual. Only with the truth will know if you are in alignment with your potential mate. Life is full of great people and wonderful experiences. Not all of them will take place with the person you end up with and if they are the mature, loving person that you really want to spend a life with then nothing in your past – or theirs – can really stop that. Dishonesty can and will. Do the right thing for a budding relationship and tell the truth.

Confession is good, but it would have been better to go to a priest.

If she had told the truth from the beginning, maybe I would have foud a way to deal with it.

I’m still not sure whether it was the sex or the lie that hurt the most.

I had not had any previous relationships either, and it made me feel good and secure to know I was the only man in her life.

Then five years later she confessed to me that she had been with three others.

I was devastated. I felt like I had been living with a stranger. I was angry and hurt beyond any hurt I ever had experienced. I wanted to leave but with a child, that was out of the question. It took a good seven years to get past the agony stage, but many years later the wound is still there.

I never got over it. The only way I can deal with it is to try to put it in a separate compartment somewhere. But if I go there, it still hurts.

I don’t feel that I was special. I feel that I am just the next sex partner that came along.

I cannot bear to see sexual situations on television because it makes me think that my wife did that same thing with someone else. It kills me to think of my wife naked and united in pleasure with another man.

I wonder about whether she enjoyed it with them. Whether the other men were “bigger” and whether that mattered. Whether there is still some emotional bond with them–especially the last one, since that relationship was for a few years.

Although to her is was all in the past when she told me, to me it became very real and present, as if she was having an adulterous affair with them, and as if these men were in my life and in my home and marriage.

It’s 20 years after she told me and my two children are grown and sometimes this issue comes up and sometimes I think it could still wreck our marriage, even after all these years.

Whether we stay together or split. Whether I ever find someone new, stay with my wife, or live single, I feel that this will be with me the rest of my life.

Am I being a baby about it? I don’t know. But that’s how I feel.

Trust is so vital in a relationship, but for someone to bring something out in the open that they have hidden for years is a signal of trust. Would it be hard to wonder what else they might be hiding? I would wonder probably all the time. And I would ask. And the relationship might not work after that. But it might – and that’s what is so crucial. Leaving your mind open, just in case you actually do have the capacity to forgive, to understand, to believe there is more to the person in front of you than their past.

Remember in high school debate when you were given a side of an issue to defend, regardless of whether you actually felt that way or not? I would love to see how many of you could write from the other side’s perspective, from her viewpoint, and talk about why it was understandable. Maybe not okay in your eyes, maybe not something you would put up with, but what her perspective was.

If all you can come up with is negative things to say, then you have your answer about why more women aren’t joining in. If, on the other hand, you can actually visualize her quandary and post some real discussion about why she might have said what she said, you might see other women – on both sides of the issue – joining in.

I am still waiting to find out what philosophers as you stated, claim

“Some philosophers say that’s what life is really about – experiencing life so that we can discover who we truly want to be.”

Or was this just a lie to otherwise justify poor behavior, bad advice and propagate immoral virtues?

Similarly, a friend of mine once married a woman and soon after, learned she had a big student debt, which she asked him to help pay off. As he told me, it wasn’t the money that was a problem, it was she didn’t trust him enough to tell him before the nuptuals, and the marriage soon dissolved as a result.

Had your wife told you of the 30 number pre-marriage, would you have dealt with it better and gone ahead with the marriage? I suspect you would have, but again, you’ll never have the chance to know for sure, which is the ultimate point. Thanks for sharing!

A man cares more because back in primitive times, a more active/promiscuous woman is a bit less likely to end up carrying HIS baby on average. (And when you’re a man with a preference for virgins, you KNOW it’s gonna be your baby for sure, not to mention the fact that it means it’s a probably a very fertile young girl.)

But why should women object to experienced partners, evolutionarily-speaking? A more sexually active/promiscuous male isn’t any less likely to impregnate her than an inactive one, but a more sexually a/p male is often a sign of a more attractive and/or high-status male. Nothing to lose at all.

The whole thing is pure genetic programming, like almost all of our natural sexual preferences when you really think about them. It’s not romantic, it’s just the truth.

Could we ask men not to care, despite such a strongly programmed-in preference?
Forget about it. That’s about as realistic as wanting women to stop chasing after “bad boys” during their teens/20s, or asking them to stop finding confidence attractive in a man.

– What if this woman had previously smoked for years and only recently quit?

– What if this woman had been 100 pounds overweight for her entire life and only very recently slimmed down to a healthier size?

This man in question is clearly dating the woman with marriage & life partnership in mind. Wouldn’t it seem very reasonable for the man in question to want know anything like these above questions? We’re talking about relevant issues that tell A LOT about the person he’s dating, and more importantly they reveal serious problems that have at least a medium-grade chance of showing up again later on in the future.

I see the question about the woman’s sexual history as being in the same category as my hypothetical questions above. It may be politically-correct to insist that “the past is the past” and “everyone makes mistakes with old partners” . . . but that doesn’t mean it makes any sense to leave this stone unturned when trying to select a life partner. The past IS often relevant and it still tells you A LOT about person, no matter how regrettable this fact might be for the woman in question.

The man may not really need to know the EXACT number of partners, or their names, or the gory details about their sex, etc . . . but it’s 100% reasonable if he would like to at least know a few ballpark figures about her past. He has clearly demonstrated that this is an important part of the decision-making process for HIM, whether she cares about other people’s pasts or not. Out of respect, I think the woman owes him either an honest answer or a “no comment” to any questions he might on the issue. No misleading.

The man as a right to want to know. The woman as a right not to answer any question that she doesn’t want to. And either one of them has the right to terminate the relationship any time that they feel they cannot resolve an issue like this.

Thank you for your very well written and insightful posting. I do not agree with all that you write but I can see some logic in ALL of it and will take it into consideration for my own personal opinion modification. Your posting suggests to me that you have to make some very hard decisions with your “lady love” and they are ones that will take a great amount of thought. I wish you the very best of luck with your situation and hope that you both find the happiness you are seeking.

Regards