SUBSCRIBEHonesty About Previous Sex Partners… How Much Do You Really Need To Share?
The Question: I have been with a man for 5 months. He told me a few months ago that he has strong values and wants to wait for marriage to have sex. I was a little disappointed, but I respect his beliefs. We are very open with each other and I have never lied to him about anything until he asked me how many people I have slept with. I said 3, but the real number is around 40. I’ve never been so sure about someone in my life until I met him and wish to put my promiscuity in the past, but I fear he may look at me differently due to his strong values. That is why I wonder if it is necessary for me to tell him the real number of people I have had sex with. Or is this a lie that can remain a secret?
The Answer: My first response is that it’s no one else’s business how many people you’ve had sex with in the past or will have sex with the future…
Don’t allow yourself or your actions to be judged by another person. We make decisions every day and we learn from the results of those decisions and move on to the next decision. There is absolutely no reason to regret any decision you’ve ever made as long as you learned something from the experiences that followed. We grow with each experience, each choice, and each relationship. Some philosophers say that’s what life is really about - experiencing life so that we can discover who we truly want to be.
"We sometimes have to experience who we don’t want to be so that we can discover the person we want to become."
Each of us has our own set of core values that are important to us, but that doesn’t give us the right to push those values onto another person, nor to judge that person because they do not share our values now or in the past. Your partner should not judge you for your past actions because it is those actions and decisions that have made you the person that he or she loves today.
One man’s convictions, values, and moral beliefs are another man’s heresy. For thousands of years different societies have persecuted other cultures and societies for arbitrary "values" and "morality".
Ponder this for a moment… In the greater scheme of the Universe, what gives one man or society the right to determine what is right and wrong for everyone else? Or to force others to feel shame if they feel or believe differently?
If you are suppressing who you really are to match up with another person’s "strong values", realize that there’s nothing wrong with who you are, and there’s nothing in the world that makes their values and beliefs, or life experience, any better than yours. Period. Beware of convincing yourself to live up to someone else’s values. You could end up resenting the other person for it, which could end your relationship.
While I cannot make your decision for you as to whether or not to tell your boyfriend the actual number of people that you’ve slept with, I will say this: Open and honest communication in a relationship is vital to its growth and survival. If this is something that will haunt you and cause you distress on the inside, then you should tell him because suppressing it will affect your relationship. But if you can truly forgive yourself and let go of any guilt that you carry around regarding your past sexual activity, then I say let sleeping dogs lie and move on with your life.
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159 Responses to “Honesty About Previous Sex Partners… How Much Do You Really Need To Share?”
A 2006 study from the University of Michigan confirmed what other studies have found: there is a huge discrepancy in the number of partners that women report as compared to the number of partners that men report. There should truly be a correlation, right? They believe that the discrepancy in the number of partners (why men have more than women) is attributed to one of two factors:
1. Discrepancy in estimating methods (over or underestimating)
2. Lying
More important, in my mind, than the discrepancies in the numbers that we all confess to is the relevance of any number at all. Using myself as an example, if I told my partner how many individuals I’ve been with, would my number be too low? Would it be seen as too high? If it’s too low, is there not a connotation that goes with that—sexually inhibited, prude, inexperienced? If it’s too high—slut, loose, easy, possibly exposed to risky circumstances?
Sure we want to know if the person we’re with has had responsible sexual encounters, but do we really need to know how many encounters that they have had? Wouldn’t the better question be, how many unprotected encounters have you had?
Or, perhaps that number skyrocketed during a time in your life that was a little promiscuous. Perhaps you are no longer keeping that “tempo” in your love life, but the number is still startling. Would you be comfortable revealing that number knowing that it makes a statement independent of who you actually are?
I say to hell with the numbers—I always detested math anyway. Now don’t go assuming that I’m shucking the number theory because I’ve had so many partners and I’m trying to defend my comrades. No, I just believe that if you’re in a long-term relationship with someone, you’ve already made decisions about their character and morals that you’re content with. There’s no sense in asking a question like this that would otherwise cause ripples in the pond. Ask the practical things—save your fishing around for details about their life before you for more useful topics.
I don’t think the writer has anything to apologize for, but thats much different than suggesting she ’suppress’ the truth by lying. The response appears to pay short shrift to the boyfriend, doesn’t it? Shouldn’t his beliefs and values get the same respect? In other words, if he feels its important, shouldn’t he know the truth so he can act based on his values? As you write- everyone has core values that are important to him/her. What if he had written in with same quandry from his perspective? Would your answer be: your values are your values, and you should not let anyone attempt to impose theirs on you!
Truth matters.
The issue is lying, not sleeping. This is a big secret to carry forward and if it comes out in the future it could be devastating to the marriage. She can say “I don’t want to talk about that” but lying about it is very questionable. Also, I’d profile these two as having potential trouble in the future if they have incompatible “acceptable behavior” views as it appears they do.
I find the advice and above comment very interesting and questionable. Are you being wise or simply being supportive of her need for validating her dishonesty? What happened to “truth” as the cornerstone of a good relationship?
Hey guys. Great comments! I just wanted to clarify one thing. We are not encouraging anyone to be dishonest with their partner. Dan and I are completely honest with each other - even when what we have to say is not necessarily what the other person wants to hear. Open and honest communication is what long lasting and strong relationships are made of.
The intent of the last statement on this post is to make sure that you don’t allow yourself to be judged by what others feel is the right thing to do or say. You should always go with what feels right to you in your heart - even if it means being dishonest or in some other way, going against societal norms.
Jennifer
Jennifer I’m confused because it looks like you *are* encouraging dishonesty if it “feels right to you in your heart”. ?
But I won’t pick on you anymore - I don’t agree with the advice but that’s OK. This is a very clever site and I’ll look forward to *agreeing* in the future!
This is a tricky situation. The problem with ‘fessing up is that it might so disappoint the more moralistic partner that he or she loses all affection for the more promisuous one.
Yet being honest is vital for communication, which in turn is essential to a healthy relationship.
I was once in a similar situation. I was comparatively the more “decadent” partner and when quizzed I was honest about what I’d been up to. It didn’t ruin the relationship, but it gave it a more awkward start, that’s for sure!
***this post has been edited to remove mean spirited or offensive statements***
"In the greater scheme of the Universe, what gives one man or society the right to determine what is right and wrong for everyone else? Or to force others to feel shame if they feel or believe differently?"
This type of moral relativist "advice" is truly **** and ****. Of course we make judgments and determinations about what is right and wrong - every day. And every one of us makes judgments about other people based on what we believe to be right and wrong. Arbitrary values and morality? Are you suggesting there is no right or wrong? It sure sounds like it. Don’t you realize that we live under a system of laws, many of which are based on society’s collective moral interpretation of what is right and what is wrong?
How can you say that a woman’s promiscuous past is none of her potential husband’s business? That is absurd. As a previous commenter noted very accurately, if she lies to him and the truth then becomes known at some later date, the marriage would be destroyed. Do you really consider starting out the marriage with such a significant false pretense to be sound advice?
And to suggest that "You should always go with what feels right to you in your heart, even if it means being dishonest", is potentially some of the worst advice I have ever heard. Dishonesty is almost always a prescription for making a situation much worse than it would have been had the truth been told in the first place.
Having stumbled upon this web site by accident and then reading the column out of curiosity, I’d sure like to know what type of background or education has guided you to become such a strong proponent of moral relativism.
I believe that we are all entitled to express our opinions freely.
Here are just a few points to ponder…
What society perceives as right and wrong changes and evolves as humanity grows and evolves.
It was once considered acceptable by society to …
1. Burn people at the stake because they may or may not have been a witch
2. Force the separtation of individuals bases soley on the color of their skin
3. Prevent women from voting
4. Burn books that the collective society believed to be unacceptable
5. Cut off a man’s hand for stealing a loaf of bread out of hunger
Today, these rules seem very extreme to us and even barbaric.
I believe that many of our current societal rules and moral standards will be viewed in much the same way by future generations.
Remember to always stay open minded and to continuously question everything.
Our ability to learn, grow, and change is critical to the evolution of the human race.
You are correct that what society “perceives” as right and wrong changes and evolves, but what IS right and wrong never does.
Interesting debate.
I have mixed feelings regarding “sex number”.
Well, I had around 50 women in my life I had a sexual realationship with. I din´t sleep with everyone (I did it with around 35 I think).
However some girls I told about it felt different about the other ~15 women. Some said that inetnsive kissing/petting comes very close to sexual intercourse and therefore it counts as sex. intercourse. Others said kissing/petting is not sex.
In my opinion there is no difference whether you had your fingers or your penis in a womens´ vagina. It maybe doesn´t qualify 100% for “slept with” comments.
The main problem seems to me that to a certain extend every man/woman is jealously about someone else past. Sex is still associated with exclusivity what you share in a partnership. If you hear you are “just” number 40+ this sounds in a certain way like being unimportant.
However if you compare 40+ sex partners with around 2,5 Billion men on the planet - it seems so small…
Regards,
René
I have to disagree with the entire advice column. A persons history is what defines them. The only thing we have to judge a person by is their history. It shows their morals and beliefs and defines them as a person. It tells us what we can expect in the future from that person. If I was a rapist, would that not effect your desire to date me? Do you have the right to know? Its in my past though. So it should not matter, right?????? Of course it does. I tells you about me. Who better to judge a person but their lover/spouse/Boy-girl friend. We all are judged and we all judge others all day every day. To suggest that you should not be judged for your promiscuous behavior is ignorant and false. We are all judged by our actions and decisions throughout life. If you chose to be promiscuous that is your choice but like all choices it has a price to pay. Sex has consequences people. In the last place you will ever expect to see them. Those consequences are very real.
Jeff…. Great comments and I couldn’t agree more. Anyone who says that it is ok to lie in order to preserve a relationship must have a complete lack of respect for anyone other than themselves. How can you possibly LIE to a partner that you supposedly LOVE? I would suggest that its because you are a completely selfish person who is trying to convince yourself that as long as you don’t have to admit to your mistakes, that they can’t be considered mistakes and or immoral behavior. In other words, as long as you can keep it under a rug, you won’t have to LOOK at what you did wrong and therefore, keep the option open to continue the behavior in the future… People who feel that there is nothing wrong with that kind of behavior "in my opinion" should not be in a relationship to begin with. Let me ask you this, Would you rather know that your partner loves you for ALL THAT YOU ARE? Or are you content with them loving the LIE that you have told? Truly… morality is fleeting in our society.
***this post has been edited to remove mean spirited or offensive statements***
Is some one who sell them selves so cheaply worth your time? What if you only find out later, I know I don’t want want to marry the kind of women I dated. Sex with women i don’t intent to marry can only benefit my ego,and as i have a low investment value in promiscuous women it cost me very little.
Is it a double standard. YES! And there is a reason for it. A man has much more to lose by being married to a loose woman, he has no idea if the children are his or not and spends a great deal of time and energy raising children that he hopes are his. Doesn’t her risky behavior affect these odds. So girls, don’t tell us.
If you do tell us you will lose respect as a potential mother to our children, and won’t make it past the month mark.
Don’t trifle with mans only reason for being… here passing on his genes.
PS sleeping with us on the first date makes you a ***** as well, wait a month and we will more likely fall in love with you and want you in our lives.
Mike
also i like Jeff as well
IMHO to give another person…especially a potential love interest less than the complete truth..when they’ve asked you something that they plan to make a potentially life-changing descision around..seems to me the cruelest form of disrepect. I just had this discussion with my incredible 35 yo girlfreind of 4 months…she told me a number of past partners which literally took my breath away. She went on to explain most were during her ‘experimental years’ (17-21 yrs).
Now I have to decide if I can accept this knowledge, manage my own insecurities, and trust her that this type of behavior is really in her long ago ‘past’. The point is…I think she was honest with me, knowing I probably wouldnt be thrilled ..and I actually appreciated her willingness to be vulnerable to whatever I chose to do with her HONEST answer. In my ‘head’ ..if her numerous partners helped her quench ’sexual curiousity’ and make her more certain about being faithful to just one man..then GREAT! My heart is still just processing……any comments?
Simply put, a relationship based on lies is just that , a lie. Your past actions are an immoral and value less person will reflect your future and the way you make decisions and how you handle difficult situations.
You poor boyfriend should know the truth you were basically a moraless person and he deserves much better than you.
I would never marry a woman that doesn’t respect her own body. You post disgusts me, and you deserve to marry a man like Wilt Chamberlin.
I am sick of trashy woman that later in their life after using drugs and drinking and screwing like whores, go out and find a nice guy and lie to him.
I will pray to God tonight that your boyfriend finds out the truth that you were a disgusting person and that GOd sends him a good woman with values and respect.
Mike Rogers
Your mam are what is wrong with society and why the divorce rate is so high. You are a liar and want to paint a better picture of yourself.
Be proud that you had sex with so many men, and be proud to tell your future children. You have free will and nobody forced you.
Honesty is the best policy, because you know what you are for having so many partners, my gosh!! Own up to it. The guy deserves to know, you lied to him by over 1200%, that is bad in every aspect.
That is truely sad that a woman can own up to her past and accept responsibilty of her past and lie to a man. Now you know why men lie to woman so much, because they learned from you ladies!
OK, my turn to chime in again…
While I strongly disagree with the langauage and overall judgemental tone of many of these comments, what I am reading (when I try really hard to ingore the sheer rudeness) is that men really want a woman to be honest with them.
They are however gong to be incredibly judgemental - as you can see from the comments on this post…
As a woman, my suggestion is to find a less judgemental, less fundamentalist man. They are out there, trust me. Not all men fall so far to the right!
MANY men believe that it’s OK for women to have sex to - not just them!
I do agree that honesty is critical in a successful relationship and so is total acceptance and unconditional love.
Your past experiences are what made you the person that you are today. There are no right and wrong experiences - just opportunities to learn and grow.
Jennifer,
In my situation, it’s not the ‘number’ of past partners she’s had that bothers me. I’m just sort of worried that a woman who’s chosen to have sex with over 100 men in her past…will be sexually happy..with just ONE man (me). Am I missing something?? Should I just focus on the present..and “TRUST” that she’ll be civil enough to tell me…and let me leave with my dignity..if she ever feels that she needs to have sex with another guy ‘just for fun’?? Sounds like a very vulnerable position to take, and I really dont want to wast needless energy worrying…IF a woman can behave in such a way at one point in her life..and then be in a faithful committed relationship…..later on. You’re a woman..so hopefully you can give me a “woman’s” point of view.
My issue in this regard is a bit different. My wife and I grew up in the same town and have been friends throughought grade school, but only about ten years ago became lovers. It wasn’t until recently that her past unexpectedly came up, and I was shocked to learn that she had slept back in high school with an old mutual friend of ours. That information opened up the flood gates, and I became more and more curious to learn who she had fooled around with up before we became a couple — most of the guys I know and am friends with. She eventually shared all (I think), but only after I “dragged” it out of her, as she was particularly hesitant to clarify how far things went or claimed not to remember specifics (which I find hard to entirely believe).
I don’t want to be the kind of insecure guy who gets all worked up about his partner’s past, and I truly believe my partner loves me and hasn’t cheated since we’ve been together. It is disconcerting, however, that she is not entirely the person I thought she was, even though the behaveour in question happened a long time ago and has virtually no consequence on today’s circumstances. In other words, even though it doesn’t matter, it still bothers me but I’m not sure why.
Doug
OMG .. you know, it’s no wonder our society is as sexually pent-up as it is. You people need to relax. Sex is fun. If I had any future partners that I found out I was only their first, third, or other absurdly low number partner, I’d start to wonder .. Why? What’s wrong? That just SCREAMS frigid to me. And besides .. wouldn’t you feel even more special to find out that after all her breadth of sexual experience that she chose to be with you and further continued to choose to be with you? I mean, after all that experience, she obviously has a choice.
I will take kind exception to Jennifer’s ‘dishonest’ statement. It strikes me that it might be intended as not quite as much outright ‘lying’ as much as ’social graces’. Frankly, I’m kind of proud of the number and quality of sexual partners I’ve had and I would expect any woman I’m with to feel the same. If she’s ashamed of her experience (and even goes on to lie about it) that doesn’t bode well for her ethical scruples.
Maestro’s comments are reasonable and rational, but sound like someone who’s never given his entire heart over to another to become true partners. Jealousy is a normal emotion, even if it’s not rational. It probably comes from our animal instincts (for men in particular) to protect what’s theirs physically and emotionally. True that sex is fun and past experiences shouldn’t have long term consequences, but when it comes to the person you most treasure and share your life with, easier said than done.
Doug
Now, THAT’s funny, Doug! How could possibly suppose to know that I’ve never done so? I mean, if you want to make suppositions about the intentions and feelings of others based upon their lack of anger or fear, then that’s your prerogative, but it seems incredibly short-sighted and premature.
About the rest of your statements, you’re right. It IS our instinct to be protective and I’m probably one of the most protective guys I know, but not to the point of infriging upon the freedoms of anyone I’m in a relationship with. If you guys feel the need to do so, the it’s your wives’ and lovers’ losses, not mine.
This thread is just getting too entertaining to pass up.
Talk about twisting things around, Maestro. My supposition about you was based on how you so quickly dismissed my feelings, and those of “other pent up peope in our society,” by simplistically prescribing that we “relax.” That might be appropriate advise, but is not terribly insightful or empathetic.
As for infringing on other people’s freedoms, how am I doing that? I started by saying that I realize my feelings were more emotional than rational, but that they continue to bother me anyway. Your argument that jealousy is stupid, so just ignore those feelings, isn’t making me feel better. I don’t want to infringe on my wife or anyone else — but to terms with my feelings so I can move on, without anger or fear.
Congratulations on being a protective person. Now how about trying to be a helpful one? If you can’t, then please do pass up on the thread.
To suggest that the number of sexual partners a person has (regardless of gender) is in the past and irreverent is ignorant at best. How is one to expect that a person who practices promiscuity then to suddenly whamooo, I am married and I am monogamous? What ever happened to, “You are what you eat?” If you practice immoral behavior before what basis is there to believe you will not after marriage? NONE. If this woman believes she was not immoral then she would have no problem stating - NOT confessing - her previous activity. What she likes so much about him is likely his VIRTUES, so naturally she is fearful of what will happen when he hears she has none.
Personally, I love loose women. I would NEVER marry one. I could NEVER respect her. She does not respect herself! She is a fun girl to hang out with, not love. Yes, sex is fun.
I empathize with you Joel. You have a VERY valid point. Sadly her lifetime of behavior has told us that in fact she will not be happy with just you. The only thing we have to judge her by is her past. And well, there you go.
This all boils down to the usual flaw in Western selfish thinking. You enjoy sex so you have all of it you want without consideration of your future spouse or your own body. Its the “ME” generations attitude. SELFISH SELFISH SELFISH. ME ME ME.
Everything we do has consequences, be it speeding, or being promiscuous. Sex has consequences, sadly many find out when it is too late. When the one they love with all their heart - leaves them because of their promiscuity, or when they get warts, or cervical cancer or Aids or ohhh the list goes on and on.
If we learn nothing else from this forum, we should learn that.
SEX HAS CONSEQUENCES.
@ Peter - it is both dangerous and unfair to judge people by their past actions. This leaves no room for new choices, change, growth and maturity. People learn from their mistakes - and if they have truly made a change, then their new actions will congruent with the new person they have become.
@ Everyone Else - We simply don’t have enough information about this woman to judge her. Perhaps she was with 40 men over the course of 15 years. That’s two and a half guys a year, or one every 5 months. Some of them might have been flings. I’m sure others were serious relationships.
What if she was 100% true to each and every one of those serious relationships - that she had never cheated on a boyfriend in her life?
What if she was sexually abused as a child, and was taught that the only way to get love was to get in bed?
What if she had done a tremendous amount of healing work and was truly able to put her past behind her?
Only this woman can decide what is the right thing to say to this man. There isn’t a person on this planet that hasn’t told even a small lie to their spouse - even if to simply keep them from worrying about something.
And marriages recover every day from deep, dark tragic lies. Like my own - both my husband and I started and continued our marriage for 8 years based on unrelated but even more damaging lies - and through dedication, commitment and devotion to each other we now have a relationship that you would probably be jealous of.
It’s not right to deceive - but to make judgments without having all of the information available to us can be far more damaging than a lie can be.
Very interesting discussion indeed! Yet further proof that people love sex and are very emotional regarding any kind of discussion of it; people love what they are “good” at, which is why the world’s population continues to rise! Wendy and Maestro bring up very valid points regarding not judging one on his or her past, and that not disclosing one’s number is in fact an issue of social graces, as one does not want his/her partner to experience pain if he/her attributes a lot to such an issue. My advice is this: if you are in a relationship wherein your partner cares a lot about the above mentioned topic, and you do not; (and vice-versa), leave the relationship immediately if you both cannot work through this somehow. In the big scheme of issues that long-term couples face, this topic is trivial, as much more difficult things lie ahead, so if you and your significant other cannot come terms regarding this, please remember that future issues do get a lot harder. Good luck!
Not sure if I can improve on Wendy’s comments, but I want to add something here.
There’s a saying that goes:
“The Honeymoon is over when the groom farts in front of the bride, and the marriage begins the first time the bride farts in front of the groom.”
Marriage is a game of compromise and honesty. The fact is that you aren’t going to like everything about your partner, and they aren’t going to like everything about you. But through the love you share, as you grow together you learn to look past the occasional stinky fart.
Here’s one question that you might want to ask yourself. Why are you so afraid to tell him about your history? In my opinion, if you are uncomfortable sharing your fear over your history with him, then there is something lacking in the intimacy between you, and maybe you need to spend some more time growing together in your love before you approach something as serious as marriage.
I say tell your boyfriend about all the partners. If he reacts badly, that’s HIS problem. If he judges you, then he is refusing to compromise for you, and that is not a sign of love. If he truly loves you, he will recognise that you are confessing a fear to him, and he will do everything he can to work through it with you.
Now be careful, because his first reaction might be very negative. He might need to vent some emotions. But he should eventually come around and start talking to you in a supportive and loving way about this issue. If he doesn’t, or if he becomes verbally abusive, then he isn’t the one for you.
Wow - such heated conversation! Some of you guys are making it pretty easy for women to think they SHOULD lie to you about it, with the amount of judgmental harsh words you’re responding with.
To the original question - is it necessary to tell the full number, or should you keep it secret? There’s nothing black and white. I don’t care who thinks that right and wrong never change - it does on a personal basis.
For example… would you go back into the store to give the cashier the extra dime she accidentally gave you in change? If the answer’s yes, keep reading. Would you go back in if you didn’t see the dime until you got in your car? Would you go back in if you didn’t see the dime until you got in your car, which you parked across the parking lot? How about if it were raining outside? If the answer’s still yes, how about if your two young kids are with you? And one of them has to go to the bathroom? And the other just threw up? In the car?
My point is this. There’s a line for every individual in which 10 cents suddenly is not worth it. For some people, they might go back into the store, dragging their sick kids along with them through the rain. Those people might change their mind if they had a phone call that their husband collapsed and something’s wrong.
For this woman who told her boyfriend of five months that she has been with 3 men, there was a line she wasn’t ready to cross. We don’t know the circumstances, but we do know that the potential consequences of her full disclosure scared her.
It might have served her better had she used the question as an opportunity for discussion about WHY the question came up in the first place, but the point is that she didn’t. She made her choice - went with what she felt comfortable and secure with. If this relationship lasts, there might come a time when she feels secure enough to discuss it further with him, knowing he loves her and is ready to discuss things in an open way.
If he has grown to love her significantly, he will appreciate and embrace her past, no matter how distasteful to him, because those experiences have contributed to who she is today. Every choice we make, when we make it in the interest of growing into a more mature person, is for our good. Even if the choice is to hide something until we feel it can be brought out in a conversation that is meaningful and open.
5 months. FIVE MONTHS. And you’re getting onto her for lying about something so sensitive? Give me a break. This relationship will either go deeper where they can talk about it freely, or it will go away. Either way, she will hopefully learn from it and become more secure in her own reality - past and present.
Excellent point Scott. Jennifer and I truly share everything - we don’t hold anything back from each other. And that’s an amazing and wonderful situation to be in for a relationship.
Have an awesome day!
Dan
@ Bethany - VERY well said.
Wendy,
How naive to say that we should not be quick to judge. Your statement in and of itself shows your own judgment of me. I am very tired of the argument about judgment. It is both NORMAL and NATURAL and FAIR to judge a person. It is what makes us human. The ability to think, which is judgment.
Scott,
You could not be more wrong when you say that this is “HIS” problem. If anyone loses a person they truly love due to their own indescressions then it is their loss. Not that of the other person. It is now more than ever HER problem, not his. Obviously we are choosing on the side of selfishness instead of accountability. Oh the american selfish way! Home of the …. ahhh.. cowards?
To suggest that she lie or not disclose to him her promiscuity is to build a relationship on a complete moral lie to him. She made her bed, now lie in it.
To suggest that this is equivalent to a free dime from a cashier or little white lie is so terribly disrespectful of his morals and value system. To equate sex to either speak wonders of the speakers values and morals. No offense intended.
Can be belittle this man any more for being moral and having values outside his own selfish desires? I for one applaud him and tip my hat to the few remaining Americans/People with values that are other than selfish desires.
I want to clarify - I do not belittle this man for having values. In fact, I applaud people who have strong beliefs and are willing to stand for them.
My point in the dime from the cashier story was simply that whatever your belief, you have a line where it suddenly changes. Whether it is as strong as “if someone threatened my daughter’s life unless I had sex with them” or as simple as “I don’t want to get out in the rain with my sick kid to return a dime to the cashier” there is always a line where you don’t do what you consider the “right” thing to do. Everything is relative because the motive of the heart, the intention, cannot always be the same for every person.
I think the ideal solution would be for people to talk about these things - how many sexual partners being the case this post is about - and to delve into what beliefs both individuals embrace. I also don’t think that your past sexual encounters are the single definition of who you are today.
The boyfriend in this scenario has every right to say that he believes that a relationship should be monogamous. I would hope that he could hear his beloved’s heart and see if she is at a point where he can continue a relationship with her or not. If not, I do not belittle him. Nor do I belittle her for her previous actions. I think that is the problem - we are always looking for someone to belittle. It’s OKAY if the relationship doesn’t work. It’s FANTASTIC if both people believe enough in themselves that they can part ways if they are not currently completely compatible.
The issue here isn’t sex. The issue here is that these two people need to eventually be able to talk about past life experiences - whether those be how many sexual encounters, or their relationship with their parents, or their history of alcohol abuse, or any other potentially serious factor in their life, and be able to openly discuss it. There’s nothing wrong with either of them, other than their lack of self-confidence and belief to be able to speak freely and be willing to separate if there is a non-acceptance on either side.
I’m so tired of non-acceptance ALWAYS being construed as a bad thing. It’s our right as individuals to say to someone that their lifestyle or belief systems just don’t fit in with our current goals or desires or lifestyle. It’s OKAY to be different - it’s a wonderful thing. It’s even better when both sides accept that and are willing to move on with their lives without trying to conform the other person to their own ideas. The other person will come around to those ideas when they are ready, or they will not and will come to completely different ideas.
If we would talk freely and with conviction to each other about what we believe, with the presumption AND ACCEPTANCE that the other person might not be in the same place we are, we would have an easier time releasing people and receiving people into our lives.
What I see here is not the honoring or alledged applause for high moral standards. Rather, I see advice saying that he is somehow binded and she should wait to tell him when he may be in a better place to not judge her previous behavior. This is only suggestive of selfish behavior and suggestive that he is NOT in a good place due to his high moral standards.
We are not talking about a knife being held to her throat to engage in promiscuous behavior. It was a very conscience choice, so the suggestion of right and wrong remains in a very hardened place and not on a sliding scale. Just as our legal system has a repeat offender approach, her behavior was not a one time, knife to her throat incident. It was a lifestyle CHOICE which comes with consequences!
No, your past sexual encounters are who you are today, I agree. But you Bethany have stated yourself that those experiences are what made her who she is today. So which is it? One cannot use the opposing arguments to secure the same gain. Either or, which is it?
Since this was a lifestyle choice, it does tell us a LOT about the values and morals of this person. I am not suggesting good or bad morals and or values. But, to her boyfriend it will tell him a LOT. He has stated openly his moral beliefs and values regarding this. She has chosen to hide hers and lie about it. This tells us two things. One - She believes this was immoral behavior. Two – she is willing to continue to engage in immoral behavior in her active deception of her past to her boyfriend.
“She made her choice - went with what she felt comfortable and secure with. “ — If this were true we would not be discussing this topic! She clearly is not comfortable or secure with it!
“If he has grown to love her significantly “ — OMG how selfish. Perhaps he would chose to NOT grow to love her should he have this information! Why do any of us feel we have the right to trap him after his emotions and time have been invested? This is terribly terribly selfish and unfair to him.
“Every choice we make, when we make it in the interest of growing into a more mature person, is for our good. “ — Oh how I disagree, I would not consider the decision of murder or rape or any crime a decision that is for my good. I would hope that I would have learned that moral way before having to suffer the legal consequences of my actions.
“until we feel it can be brought out in a conversation that is meaningful and open. “ — again how selfish. This will have a profound impact on this mans life. Why is this about when “WE” are comfortable? Oh how terribly selfish.
“5 months. FIVE MONTHS. And you’re getting onto her for lying about something so sensitive? Give me a break. “ — No give her boyfriend a break. She has made her choices in life now allow him to make his! Again, stop the selfishness. What about him? What about what is best for HIM? What he wants? No, everyone advises for her to do what is in her best interest and this is out of selfishness. She is obligated to tell him as soon as possible so he can decide if he wants to continue to invest time and emotional effort into her.
Our future is dictated and severely impacted and indicative of our past. All of our choices which we freely make create our future. Lack of foresight is not an excuse for immoral behavior (suggesting that she hide and or lie to him).
If you are so tired of Non-acceptance being a bad thing then why do you suggest that she continue to hide this from him? See your own earlier post? Your opinion seems very conflicted and wavering.
NO the issue here is not sex. It is morality and lack there of. The suggestion that he is not in a place to handle this is belittling of his beliefs and INSULTING. To suggest that she wait to tell him until his love is strong enough to handle her immoral behavior is INSULTING. She has made her choices in her past, now allow him to judge her on them. He has a RIGHT to know and make HIS decisions based on this HONEST information.
She states “I’ve never been so sure about someone in my life until I met him and wish to put my promiscuity in the past “ of course she does. Perhaps he does not and it is NOT her choice anylonger, it is his choice now. Does he not deserve to decide if he is “so sure about someone in his life” being aware of ALL the facts? How selfish to suggest that “it’s no one else’s business “. Is it no one elses business if he choose to be unfaithful in the relationship and does not know that he was? NO, it is the business of her boyfriend especially if she believes he is “the one”. You make your choices in the past now be held accountable for them. Its called ACCOUNTABILITY people. To suggest that it is her past and if she choose to not tell him that this is her choice and she does not have to tell him, is not only encouraging and ACKNOWLEDGING that this is immoral behavior but encouraging more of the same immoral behavior.
Bottom line, he DESERVES to know and to withhold is to deceive and continue what you clearly believe is immoral. You know that it will bother him therefore you are obligated to tell him, especially if you love him.
I wish you the best and I hope he makes a decision that is great for the both of you.
Peter - whew! Lots to comment on. I have to go paragraph by paragraph:
I can see your point of view… let me try to explain mine. When you are in a relationship with someone that you think might have a future, and there are serious, deep issues to discuss, I have found that sometimes it’s beneficial to wait to discuss them. I said earlier until that she could wait until he is in a place to talk about it openly"; but after thinking about it, she should wait until SHE can talk about it openly and not be afraid of his response. I’m going with the assumption that the reason she lied is because she was afraid of his rejection, condemnation, or disappointment. I’ve found it’s best to wait to open up about things until you can handle the response maturely… otherwise you fall into terrible emotional reactions.
Would you rate her self-admitted promiscuity more wrong or evil if it were a college fling phase she went through, nailing every man she met… or if you discovered that she had been abused by several men in her life when she was a child, and grew up searching for that love she never had? I don’t know the answer to that… perhaps you would. And yes, her choices have consequences, and she has a responsibility to disclose any sexual diseases she has to any partner before she sleeps with them. As far as emotional consequences? THAT is the part about who she is today. Your past sexual experiences do not make you a slut or not a slut. Your past sexual experiences, and how you reacted to them, what you learned from them, what you’ve gone through and how you grew, make you who you are today. So perhaps the seeming contradiction is "Your past sexual history is not who you are today" in the sense that she is not a slut because she used to be promiscuous… yet "those experiences made her who she is today" because it’s true that everything we go through and how we react and respond to those circumstances shape us and mold us.
A lifestyle choice in the past tells us only what the past morals and values were. I think that her hiding it tells us that EITHER she considers it immoral and might return to those ways as you suggested, OR that she is afraid of the response from her boyfriend. We assume from her statements about his beliefs that her motive was fear.
I agree - and there is the problem. She needs to be comfortable and secure with how she feels about her past. Whether that is remorse and the ability to clearly state that to herself and her boyfriend, or if it is acceptance without remorse. Regardless she needs to be secure enough with her past and her feelings about her past to be able to talk about it. The worst thing she could do would be to adopt his feelings of guilt and shame because she’s not strong enough to know what she really feels.
I will concede to you on a little bit of this point. I don’t believe that if her motive is to wait until she’s a stronger person to discuss this that she is "trapping" him, but I do think it’s in her best interest and most fair to him if she works on this as a big priority in her life. The sooner she can talk openly to him the better.
My point there - as mentioned above - is that the decision to learn from something… even something as terrible as a heinous crime you’ve committed or the consequences that come from that… is in our benefit.
I think I’ve addressed the rest of your post with earlier comments. Great discussion!
Great discussion guys!
I hope that everyone who reads this comment trail reads it with an open mind, no matter what their beliefs are.
Remember - Question Everything!
Have an awesome day!
Dan
First off, I hope that the person who has asked this question is reading ALL of this and considering all of the open and honest debate regarding this very sensative topic. I honestly wish you the very best and that you have learned from your experiences and that you apply what you have learned to live a happy and meaningful life.
Bethany,
For you I say thank you for your open and honest debate on this topic. I also will address your response on a one by one basis.
“When you are in a relationship with someone that you think might have a future, and there are serious, deep issues to discuss, I have found that sometimes it’s beneficial to wait to discuss them. I said earlier until that she could wait until he is in a place to talk about it openly”; but after thinking about it, she should wait until SHE can talk about it openly and not be afraid of his response. “
I see your point here but what is at the core of this issue is NOT her, rather HIM. His response is fair and deserved regardless of what that response might be. The reason I say deserved, they are both in the relationship therefore each one is permitted to react as they see fit, not how you or I see fit. The issue is again NOT what is best for her, as he has already made his moral view on this public, She has chosen to hide hers. So, the topic is HIM, not HER. What does HE deserve not what is best for her. Love is about giving, not doing what is best for me. And 5-6 months into a relationship is getting to the time for full disclosure. Waiting any longer potentially steal further from him. Again this is about HIM not her.
“Would you rate her self-admitted promiscuity more wrong or evil if it were a college fling phase she went through, nailing every man she met… or if you discovered that she had been abused by several men in her life when she was a child, and grew up searching for that love she never had? “
I am not rating anything. She has made no suggestion of any type of abuse or otherwise. I will assume the best not the worst. I disagree, he actions also have emotional consequences, and this is evident as to her wishing to NOT disclose her immoral past and just how far in the past are we talking here? And I am sorry but since you have brought up the term “Slut”, it does have a definition and yes, a persons past sexual history very much so does make or not make them fit the definition of that term. If it fits then it is the actions of the person that is at fault for the use of the term and its now being associated with them, regardless of gender! It seems to me (perhaps I am wrong) that it is only because she feels so strongly about this man that she now wants to put her promiscuous ways behind her. How is this in ANY way fair to him. He has done no wrong and offered disclosure on his morality.
“grew up searching for that love she never had? “
Regardless of any excuses, it does not dismiss behavior. Again, she made her choices, regardless of reason.
“ in the sense that she is not a slut because she used to be promiscuous” –””those experiences made her who she is today”
Sorry but that is exactly what it does. We cannot be a slut before we partake in slut like behavior. Only after. Personally, I do not like the use of this term. And for part two, sadly it make her a . Well, like I said, I don’t like that word.
“A lifestyle choice in the past tells us only what the past morals and values were. “
Exactly, and we use this as an indicator of what future morals and behavior we can expect to see from this person. To suggest otherwise is naive.
“I think that her hiding it tells us that EITHER she considers it immoral and might return to those ways as you suggested, OR that she is afraid of the response from her boyfriend. “
True, either way it is HIS right to know so he can decide if HE wishs to invest any more time into a relationship with a person who has clearly demonstrated immoral behavior and lifestyle according to him. Again this is about what is fair to HIM.
“She needs to be comfortable and secure with how she feels about her past.“
Why must a person be comfortable and secure with their past? This, is more alone the lines of denial than comfort. I have done things in my past that I am not comfortable with, I accept I have done them accept accountability for it. But I am secure or comfortable with them. I just live with it. Much like every other human.
I think what we have lost sight of is what is fair to HIM, not her. She is the one causing the problem, he is the one dealing with it. She has been selfish enough in her past that she is going to inflict an enormous amount of damage on this man if he really does love her. He will feel as though she has cheated on him with 40 other men. He will NEVER feel special to her rather just another run of the mill guy on the list. It is not fair to him on any level.
Sexual freedom is not only the freedom to act poorly as men do or have done, but also to act better. Sex has consequences, just ask this young lady! Very very very expensive consequences. My heart bleeds for both of them, but more for him, he is about to be destroyed by her confession.
I enjoy your debate Bethany.
Regards,
Peter
Humm, I just re read a posting by Sue.
Sus says “this topic is trivial.” This is the topic of a persons entire BELIEF system. His morals and values. To suggest that this is in any way trivial is so dismissive of his entire being. This is in NO way trivial. This is his belief system. I do not consider anyones beliefs to be trivial. Is this “trivial” attitude not what is the entire problem in the middle east? Its a persons system of VALUE, how on earth is that trivial?
Yes other things in a long term marriage will be challenging but by no means is this trivial!
Hey, Jen and Dan.
You said in your original reply
"We grow with each experience, each choice, and each relationship. Some philosophers say that’s what life is really about"
Being an avid amateur philosopher I am curious which philosophers it is you are suggesting make this claim on what life is really about?
I think this thread has taken an interesting turn on values and the scope of judging other’s values. Getting back to the earlier and perhaps less philophical question of previous past partners and how much one needs to know, I think part of the issue isn’t so much ethics, but the challenge of emotionally separating oneself from a partner’s sexual past. It’s hard to come to terms with the sexual past of someone you love, especially if it comes out unexpectedly and turns out to be surprisingly permiscuous. Is this because the behaviour in question didn’t involve you, and that’s hard to put into perspective? I think this difficulty in placing jealousy into persepctive is, especially for men, what makes this scenario so potentially hurtful and difficult to resolve. This is a rather subtle point, but for me anyway, is a key factor to be worked into this broader, multi-faceted equation.
To Doug: Yes, yes, yes. You hit the nail on the head. It’s imperative for the boyfriend who asked the question in the first place to be able to hear the answer she gives and separate himself from it. That put into words a big part of what my whole stand has been.
To Peter: Ah, debate. I am enjoying it, but it is time-consuming. At some point we might have to agree that we are on two separate sides of an issue and accept that we will not agree.
But for now, the debate continues.
“I see your point here but what is at the core of this issue is NOT her, rather HIM. His response is fair and deserved regardless of what that response might be. The reason I say deserved, they are both in the relationship therefore each one is permitted to react as they see fit, not how you or I see fit. The issue is again NOT what is best for her, as he has already made his moral view on this public, She has chosen to hide hers. So, the topic is HIM, not HER. What does HE deserve not what is best for her. Love is about giving, not doing what is best for me. And 5-6 months into a relationship is getting to the time for full disclosure. Waiting any longer potentially steal further from him. Again this is about HIM not her.”
Why is this about him? He posed a potentially threatening question… probably based out of insecurity or fear… and now she’s not allowed to take a moment, a week, however long she needs to recover from the unexpected question? Why are you so against her making a choice that is good for her? I will grant you that I am answering your comments from my own perspective, my own life experiences, how I would act if I were there.
I know that my personality is easily overpowered. If I am not strong enough to stand behind what I feel or believe, I will get swallowed up in whatever emotions are being sent my way. If I were in her position, I might have lied - I don’t know if I would have lied or if I would have begged for time before I answered - but I certainly wouldn’t have offered the full answer right then. I would need time to prepare myself… not to prepare an answer that he would like, or to try to manipulate him into staying with me if he didn’t want to, but to prepare myself to accept his reaction and not absorb it. To allow him to leave if he needs to, or give him space, or to hear him vent and berate me and not take all of that negativity on myself. I don’t know if you can understand that position or not, but I hope it gives you some perspective into my mind and how alot of other women are. We’re so good at responding with our emotions that too often we take on someone else’s judgement, negative thoughts, disappointment, or other harsh feelings towards us and claim them as truth.
I’m sensing that you think that she deserves those feelings, and the truth is that no one deserves to feel that way. You really can grow and learn and mature from every life experience, so why waste time wallowing in self-abuse or someone else’s negative energy when you can move on and be positive and growing?
And I just have to say that there is a huge double standard in society. When a man reveals that in college he was quite wild - many sexual flings, one night stands, or simply a lot of relationships - it’s okay. It’s part of his past - he sowed his wild oats, and now he’s settled down and married and has a family. When a woman reveals that she had many sexual partners before, she’s promiscuous. It’s a bad thing. Men can’t get over it. It’s interesting to me that I brought up the word slut in an attempt to show you how her past doesn’t define who she is today, and you didn’t like the word yet said she was indeed a ____, meaning a slut. I have no problem saying the word, yet don’t assign it to a person based on their sexual history; you don’t like saying a negative word, but have no problem assigning the very negative meaning to someone you know little about.
That part got me a little riled up. I think that you and I, Peter, are very different in how we view things. I don’t view many sexual partners as the definition of a slut. You seem to. I don’t view your sexual history as the indicator of what decisions you will make today… you seem to. I think it’s crucial in her situation that she take time to find out what SHE thinks about her past and accept and embrace those beliefs, and THEN talk to him… and you think it’s selfish that she make this about her growth.
I’m not angry with you - I am a little more harsh in this post I think, partly because I’m in a hurry and partly because I’m a little annoyed with the idea that you think it’s wrong to make this about her growth. I also understand I might have misunderstood your position.
Either way - I’ve enjoyed the debate, I disagree with alot of your viewpoints, but I enjoyed the discussion. And I do hope that she is able to find some part of this discussion that really chimes true to her… past her sexual history, past this relationship she is in now, I hope that this whole post & comments thread helps her see more clearly who she is and what she believes.
Life really is all about how we respond to any given experience. Do we grow from it? React to it? Hide from it? I hope she doesn’t hide from her past or hide it from others in the future. I hope she gets to the point where she can talk about it freely and what she learned from all of her past experiences, including her sexual history.
Doug,
Well, did it take a turn or is that the course it was really on in the first place?
I don’t think (at least myself) that we are judging anyone else’s values. Rather, stating that one needs to be aware of them or lack of them so as to make a decision if the values are acceptable to them in the forward movement of the relationship.
A person’s sexuality is a huge part of who they are. It is a huge part of what emotions are brought into a relationship. Do we really want to “remove” ourselves from any point of emotional connection that we have with our Significant other? Isn’t the idea to have complete emotional connection? Why then, abstract out this particular behavior or emotion? Just for the purpose of acceptance? Perhaps he does not want to accept it. Perhaps he does. He is not a bad person if he chooses to discard the relationship, nor is he a sucker for keeping it. This again is his choice, and he can only make that choice once he is informed.
I can see your point of jealousy to some extent. Yes, this is a very male trait and I agree plays a role here. But, overall, this is really about values and morals. Would you marry someone who was completely in disagreement with your moral values and has exhibited this many times? I seriously think that you would have reservations and I hope you would seriously consider the consequences of taking such a gamble with this person. Like it or not, he will NEVER see her the same way again. She will forever have changed in his eyes and in his mind. A huge part of what she once was to him will forever be lost. Perhaps he can move past this, but only he can decide on this, in order to make the decision, he must know the information.
I don’t think this equation is as multi-faceted as we would like to believe. It’s pretty straight forward.
I agree with Doug 1000%! Having just been told about my ladies IMO promiscuous past, I spent 2 solid days asking myself 1)if my EGO could stand it 2) would I think about all those other guys being with my special lady..every time I saw her naked 3) could I be CERTAIN that I would never use this knowledge to be hurtful to her. She told me that in her past relationships…her boyfreinds would get annoyed when she didn’t want to have sex with them at the moment..and call her most of the already-mentioned names in this discussion. I would have walked away if I couldnt be sure of those 3 issues. Of course..it still pops into my head at the most inopportune times..and embarassing instant erection loss occurs. At least she’s able to ‘hear’ me..when I tell her what’s on my mind..even though she seems frustrated that I can’t forever forgive and forget and believe in her love and commitment to just me. Sometimes I feel like I’m being foolish in going forward..but..I know if we both really love each other..this will be a small thing in the course of our relationship. By the way..she’s also ‘accepted’ that as a 43 yr old male with full custody of 5 kids..I was sleeping (daily) with the 21 yr old live in nanny for 2 yrs. I’m sure she’s about as thrilled with that ..as I am about her “over 100 guys”! I think openess and honesty is vital to any relationship to have a chance. In my case, her honesty and vulnerability tend to make me more sure that she doesnt want to be promiscuous..but simply loved and accepted for every thing she is..and everything she’s done..good and bad. I think this is what everyone wants!
Thanks for all the insight…great discussion.
Glad my point about being able to emotionally separate oneself once learning about a partner’s sexual past illicited so much great feedback.
Bethany, you very nicely describe the inequalities of the double standard. It’s unfair that men “sow their wild oats” while women are “promiscuous.” If a women has a one-night stand, she must have low self esteem — while a man is being manly. Obviously in the case of a one-night stand, both the man and woman are seeking validation (does he/she like me, find me attractive, want to be with me). Why then in our so-called “evolved culture” is a one night stand still so much more looked upon for the woman as a character flaw? I don’t like thinking that way, but such judgements admittedly still creep into my thought process.
Peter, I think your latest input helps me now understand how you and I view this issue differently. You said, “A person’s sexual history is a huge part of who they are.” Maybe, and maybe not. A person’s sexual history is part of who they were, but that person might have changed. Don’t discount how people can change, often for the better as part of the maturation process. Many of us did things as young adults that we wouldn’t do now, and the learning that occurred helped us grow as a result. Also, your statement that, “It’s pretty straightforward,” really clarifies how to you, this is a black-and-white, right-and-wrong issue, which to the rest of us isn’t the case. People are imperfect, and if you love someone, eventually must accept their imperfections, past and present.
Joel, wow, great stuff to consider. Thanks for sharing about how your lady’s past has been tough to come to terms with, while also recognizing how your imperfect past must be difficult for her to accept. I’m always amazed at how women seem to be more forgiving and able to move on, while men struggle and often cruelly bring up the past to their partners during difficult times. The honesty required in your lady sharing her sexual past with you, and the vulnerable position she consequently put herself in as a result, is an important component as well. She’s obviously doing it because she loves you, and your recognizing and appreciating that is critical. Also recognize that her “over 100 guys” was before her knowing you and psychologically had nothing to do with you. Not to beat a dead horse, but that’s where I struggle. I would try to rationalize it (which helps but isn’t a full cure) by asking, in your case, was your present lady in your consciousness when you were having the affair with the nanny? Obviously the answer is no, which should help clarify the same otherness you can/should feel in regards to her sexual past.
NO NO NO. The boyfriend who asked the question is entitled to respond to the answer in any way he sees fit. Who are we to suggest how is the appropriate way to respond? The answer is not separate of himself, he has a vested interest in the relationship which she has LIED to him, while being fully aware of the fact that the information she has LIED about will severely impact him.
Bethany, Thank you for the debate and yes, it is time consuming but well worth the insight and possible influence on opinion tha