What a delightfully thought provoking article. Even better is the dialogue that has sprung from it. There are many who have posted from two dimetrically opposed and equally extreme positions. (I am of course speaking of the Atheists and the Legalists among you) I am not writing to either of those groups as it is impossible to have a productive discourse with those whose minds are closed to discovering truth beyond their own understanding. But to the rest of us who search for truth...

First, I am a Christian and proud of it. Second, I am heartsick at those who would speak so vocally for Christianity and destroy the witness of the church to a world that so desperately needs God's message of love and forgiveness. But for these comments I will address the issue of sexuality and the church since that is the focus of the article. Obviously my views are based on the premis that the Christian Bible represents God's revelation and complete truth. If you reject this belief then save us both the aggrevation and skip the rest of my post.

I was raised to believe sex outside the bounds of marriage was absolutely sinful. In fact I have preached and taught this myself many times over the years. But I was also raised to study the word on my own and not take everything a preacher told me at face value. One truth in studying scriptue is to analyze any interpretation in light of other scripture. When we find an apparent contradiction we must recognize that our interpretation is in error. There is perhaps no more difficult issue to deal with than sexuality in understanding God's Word. To those of you who believe there is absolutely no room for disagreement in believing God forbids sex outside of marriage I urge you to apply true principles of Biblical research to your beliefs. I did and found out my positions, which I had been taught were absolutely unquestionable, were not supported in scripture. Some in this discussion have defined fornication as sex outside marriage. A basic study into the original greek will show this definition comes from church tradition and not from God's Word. Sexual Immorality is another catch phrase to mean whatever the preacher or church wants to define it as. Without going into great length suffice it to say I was shocked at what I found when looking honestly at this issue.

When we study God's word we find many great men of the faith have enjoyed tremendous sexual freedom that was and is Blessed by God. Our Christian views that so narrowly define "God's plan" for sexuality simply do not hold up to God's word. It takes courage to reach such a controversial position, but it is absolutely necessary if we are honest in our search for truth. Many men of courage have been severely persecuted by the church and its members when they have challenged views that were held as absolute. From these brave individuals willing to challenge false beliefs in the church we have seen the coming of the Reformation, the abolition of slavery, the end of female oppression, and many other horrors justified by the "church". It is my sincere belief that a reforming change within the church concerning our understanding of sexuality is long overdo.

I don't propose to change God's word...rather to rightly divide it. Please don't respond if you can not be rational. Healthy dialogue is welcome.

Religious Fundamentalists and some Christians attempt to rationalize their opinions by saying this and that about what they think the Bible says. It is interesting that these same persons only hear what they believe from their ministers or their reading of
their version of the Bible. A minister by the name of Darwin Chandler researched every text in the Bible that suggests any mention of sex or sexuality and using the best Biblical research methods with the original language meanings in context and discovered that what modern religion says about sexuality is totally incorrect. For example Adultery does not mean sex with someone who is not your wife. In the bible Adultery means taking something without permission which could mean land, oxen, donkey, or any other possession of another including his wife. If permission was given it was NOT adultery. There are many instances of patriarchs having more than one wife and no rebuke from their God. King David took Bathsheba and had sex with her and he was only rebuked because David had the husband killed in battle to avoid the permission requirement. David even had more than one wife at that time. where these people get their opinions is strange.
If one is desirous of reading Chandlers book check the internet address
and you can download or read this book called Divine Sex. I would really like to see those who post and use religion spend time really researching the answers they give before giving a quote or verse that is probably interpreted incorrectly or understood within the religious bias that so many religions support.

Hi Eddie.

You are right... We can be a little harsh, or at least the word fundamentalism, can be a little harsh. It's definitely evoked emotion in a lot of folks! But that's our goal here is to get people talking and thinking...

Dan and Jennifer

I am a guy and in a similar position to Rafal. I am sympathetic to both parties. Rafal is trying to deal with his unwanted emotions ... yes he says some dumb things, but he too is a product of his environment, choices etc.

Thanks for your disclaimer, your honesty etc. I liked what you said (and found it personally helpful). Ultimately I believe you are right, he needs to accept her or move on.

I think you are a little hard on "fundamentalism" (lets just say conservative Christians or cC for short, I find it less pejorative). I am socially conservative, I think the ideal situation is for each person to only have sex with one other (their spouse). This is my opinion: lets say it is representative of cCs generally.

I think there is a tension between promoting these values within cC, and not stigmatising those who have different views (eg OK with pre-marital sex) and those who hold these views, but lapse either occasionally or regularly. IDEALLY this tension would not exist, but because refraining from sex is difficult and to a certain extent unnatural, it gets talked about a lot, which leads to the guilt etc.

There is a PART of cC that deliberatly promotes misinformation about sex (eg that condoms not particularly effective or that having sex before marriage will ruin your life). This I think is wrong, since it is deliberate manipulation.

thanks again!

I can't speak for everyone in this discussion, but Dan and I are not against Christianity and feel that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.

It's the 'fundamentalism' aspect that we have great issue with. And by fundamentalists, we mean those who feel that everyone needs to share their beliefs and do not accept the belief systems of others. (Many of these people will kill or die trying to convert others.)

These are the close minded individuals that we are referring to. Not all Christians are closed minded. Many are wonderful people. The people that we 'slam' are the ones who are bitter and judgemental of others and feel that I need to agree with them and their beliefs.

On the premarital sex issue... It is absolutely your right to wait and it is the right of others not to. The important thing in a relationship is that you are with someone who shares your beliefs - or someone that you can accept their beliefs when they're different from yours

I'm sorry if I seem hostile, it just seems as though you are demonizing Christian fundamentalism when that isn't necessarily the issue. If I believe that premarital sex is wrong, surely its my right to do so. I don't understand why Christians are so "closed minded" when they stand up for their beliefs and others are applauded for expressing what they believe.

I don't think that most religous people think that they need to change and save you, if you have had sex before marriage. Most are smart enough to know that you have had experience. I think that the real issue may be if they feel that you have had many partners. Most of them don't feel that they need to save you if you had sex before getting together with them. I think it's a naive point of view to think that's how most religous people feel. They have a problem with "getting around", not the actual act. The interpretation of religous text is another thing. I have heard varying viewpoints. Most people that have researched the subject seem to feel that it does not say that having sex before marriage is a sin.

Coming from an East Indian background, I can only say one thing: get over it! Virginity and the entire concept related to it is outdated!
I've heard so many stories how men have wanted to leave the "virgin" they married 'cause, gasp! she's been with a man or several. I mean, what kind of sick, egotistical, inferiority complex imbued guys are these.
Instead of appreciating a woman for her wonderful qualities, and probably the pleasure she brings to his bed (thanks to her experience), all these men can do is have issues with the fact they weren't the first. And that tells me what? Yeah-he's not very good!

Hi Josh.

We do not ostracize anyone for their beliefs or choices in life. That's exactly the point that we're trying to make with this article. In short there's nothing wrong with waiting and nothing wrong with NOT waiting. It should be an individual choice and we should not be judged for that choice - whichever way we decide to go.

We're not the ones judging here - the man in this article is the one judging his girlfriend for her past decisions. We have nothing against religion or Christianity and were just stating an observation that individuals with a strong religious upbringing 'tend' to be more judgemental of others. Certainly not everyone behaves this way, but from our life experiences and the questions we receive, it seems very common.

We don't pretend to understand everyone's individual beliefs...

We do not pretend nor claim to be medical doctors or counselors. When someone asks us for advice, we simply tell them what we would do in a similar situation - that's what advice is.

I would first like to start of by saying that I agree with the advice you all gave Rafal. If he loves his fiancé, he should be able to look past what he perceives as past mistakes.

Secondly, I would like to point out that you all seem to demonize religious fundamentalism when the issue isn't religion, it is how a person is applying these concepts sparingly and being hypocritical about when to enact his beliefs. If Rafal followed what he is attempting to judge his wife with, he would never have had sex, and he wouldn't be having it in his current relationship, and MOST OF ALL wouldn't be judging her about what he perceives as past mistakes in the first place.

As one gentleman put it, Christians do not preach about the evils of sex. We preach against PREMARITAL sex. I've grown up in a very religious environment where we hold conservative views about sexual relationships and I have no reservations or fears about the prospect of a sexual relationship within my marriage. We believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong. Regardless of what YOU believe, it is unfair for you to call us "close-minded" or "judgmental" because of the beliefs we espouse. Ironically, it makes you rather close-minded and judgmental for doing so.

There is nothing unhealthy about wanting to preserve one's virginity until after marriage. Your reasoning is a bit transparent anyway. From my experience, Rafal is an unhealthy rarity in the religious community. You speak as if EVERY man who believes like me only values a woman as an object and for their sexuality, and that simply isn't true. I am in a relationship right now with someone who shares my beliefs about premarital sex, yet both of us have had sex with other people. I don't hold it against her, just as she doesn't hold it against me. I could no more judge her for her past sexual relationships than I could if she partook in ANY thing that I view is immoral or wrong. It simply isn't my place to be upset with her about it. I've yet to have sex with her, and I hope that if I ever do, it will be after a wedding ceremony.

Besides, the guilt that you seem to believe we have for having sex outside of marriage is completely against the basis of Christian thought, and that is that through the mercy of Christ, we can live a life WITHOUT guilt about our past mistakes. I don't beat myself up about committing what I believe is a sin. If someone does, they obviously do not understand what the Christian faith really preaches.

"Perhaps she will even know what she is doing?" That is the most ignorant reason for advocating premarital sex I've ever heard. Think about it. If my first sexual encounter was with my wife on our wedding night, how would it be any different than my first sexual encounter as a 16 year old boy? As a couple, we can still discover new things about our sex life, just as if we were with other people. The only difference is that we will discover them together. I don't understand what is unhealthy about that.

I am rambling, and really can't address all of the false assumptions you all have made about what we believe. Essentially, you are guilty of the same prejudicial, hypocritical, "close-minded" attitude you accuse us of having. I find it shocking that you are attempting to advise people about their sexual relationships and you are not prepared to take their beliefs into consideration simply because you disagree.

From your perspective, if there is nothing wrong with a sexual relationship outside of marriage, what is wrong with waiting until after marriage to have sex if that is what both people want? Would you ostracize a heterosexual for not having homosexual desires? No, because you realize that not everyone is different. Where as I desire to have a sexual relationship with one person, and to discover everything about my sexuality with them over a lifetime, another person may prefer to engage in what I would view as promiscuous sexual relationships. It is extremely ignorant of you to view what we believe as some disease of which we must be cured. I am just as happy with my relationship as anyone else. I could show you hundreds of married couples who feel the same way I do. Perhaps you should be a bit more "open-minded" about other people's beliefs.