Sex, Religion, and Guilt… Will It EVER End? (Video)

34 Responses to “Sex, Religion, and Guilt… Will It EVER End? (Video)”

1. Ben on July 31st, 2007 5:09 pm

   Your religion may have a lot to do with the fact that you cannot allow yourself to have sex with someone, but keep in mind that these religious rules were put in place with the emotional (”spiritual”) protection of the person in mind and that the spiritual leaders would never wish to see a person have sex with the absence of love, or at least that and the fact that religion looks upon sex as an unclean act that should only be exercised when absolutely necessary, i.e.: the conception of a child. But here’s an interesting notion about said conception, in the renaissance it was believed that a woman could not conceive unless she had an orgasm. Also keep in mind that according to christian religious doctrines that God is forgiving and will forgive you all your sins should you repent unto him. Besides, why would God create us as sexual beings unless he intended us to be that way? I don’t want to go so far as to say religion is a crutch, but it is a wall that people, NOT GOD, have put up around ourselves to deny us what we want, and in the case of sex need, the most. We look upon it as that we will be punished for living a pleasurable life and that we must suffer as Jesus did in order to secure a place amongst the clouds. This is not true God created us to be inherently good and as long as you have good in your heart, you will please him. Having sex comes as naturally as breathing and being in a relationship myself and being in love with my girl, I see no reason why people should or would look down upon what we share when we make love, and we do whenever we can. It is a healthy part of a loving relationship and I look down upon whomever says otherwise. I know that you have your own views on the subject of sex in religion, I do not hark unto any religious views, but I do believe that there is a God of some sort and that he/she/it does not shun me and my girl when we make love because that powerful being knows what I feel towards her: Love.

2. John Davis on July 31st, 2007 5:17 pm

   Maybe the real issue is that people are afraid of contracting Sexually Transmitted Diseases. If your partner has been sleeping around a lot, the chances certainly increase.

3. Terry Grinnalds on July 31st, 2007 7:26 pm

   You were much too kind to this idiot. What a jerk (I want to say worse, but I’ll defer to your website politeness guidelines.) He doesn’t know how to forgive her? She hasn’t done anything wong! This girl should run screaming for one of the normal beer-drinking guys he feels superior to. As much as he wants to assign his anger to righteousness and moral superiority, I can guarantee you that most or all of it is due to jealousy. She has past relationships and he has not. This guy is a judgmental bully. He is using, and will continue to use her imagined wrongdoing to establish his superiority. From now on, he will insist he gets to make the rules and the decisions, as certainly she has proved herself unfit to do so. As i said, “Run, girl run. Run fast and far.”

4. Richelle on July 31st, 2007 8:51 pm

   God created sex as a gift to his children. He made it pleasurable so we can enjoy it. It was made for one man and one woman to share in marriage. I think it is sad when churches ignore this fact. Alot of Christians grow up thinking sex is evil and dirty when God taught us the opposite… we are suppose to enjoy and thank him for this very special gift. The only thing he asks of us is to save it for marriage. It is such a bonding act (they only time a man and woman can become one) it should not be treated lighlty and used for casual relationships. It is a way that a husband and a wife can unite their marriage and become closer. With that said, as Christians we also need to be forgiving of our own pasts and others. We are all sinners and only made clean by Jesus’ blood on the cross. We should not judge others for their past if they have tried to change it and if they haven’t we should lovingly help the see how awesome sex can be if it is shared with a spouse and knowing it is an awesome gift from God!

5. Jennifer W. on July 31st, 2007 10:38 pm

   I was a virgin at my first marriage. In fact, when I finally got that he would not have married me if I hadn’t been one, I saw the sickness of the whole system–men are studs and women are pure. Indeed, it was about him using religious doctrine to control me. I kicked him to the curb so fast, and married someone who liked the fact that I enjoy sex, and who didn’t give virginity a second thought! It’s just wonderful to be with someone with whom I can be myself.

6. david on August 1st, 2007 12:34 am

   You are bonified idiot.

   This article sounds like God is all for sex, but its the
   religious people who are telling us not to.

   First of all there is a book Christians reverence, its called
   the Bible, you may of heard of it but from what is written you never read it seriously.

   read 1 Corinthians chapter 6, it says adulterers and fornicators
   (sex before marriage) will not enter heaven.

   Romans 12 commands Christians to offer your bodies as a
   living sacrifice to God, holy and acceptable. This means
   obeying God’s standards, not the wisdom of the world.

   We know the worlds wisdom already :have sex everyones doing it. but where are they when you get aids, or pregnant?
   Where are they when your emotions are so tied up with the person that you just wanted a one night stand but seem to be
   connected to?

   There is no such thing as casual sex, GOd meant it for a
   deep marriage relationship. You can follow the world, but
   its ways are bankrupt and deceivous. There is a high price to
   pay for ignoring GOd. Many are paying it. Dont let it be you

7. manrush on August 1st, 2007 12:58 am

   I plan to remain abstinent until marriage. Let’s say I was in a relationship with a wonderful woman and we had been seeing each other for quite some time, and she wants to take things further. How would I tell her of my abstinence without huting her feelings or seeming like a control freak?

8. Vale on August 1st, 2007 1:12 am

   The girl the guy guy describes in his letter is obviously not the right person for him. If someone wants to marry a virgin and, by the same token, so does his/her wife/husband, then live and let live. The guy should move on if he is not happy with her sexual history. There is someone for everyone in this world. Personally, the fact that she has been divorced at such a young age, not her sexual history, should raise a red flag.

9. Chris on August 1st, 2007 6:08 am

   I am a guy, a virgin, and a Christian. Yes, it is important for us to realize that “Sex” is God’s gift to humanity, but Richelle is right in also stating that it was only intended for marriage between “one man” and “one woman.” The author of this article is faulty in saying that this is the result of a “Victorian Age” trend and it has absolutely “NOTHING” to do with demeaning women. Both men and women are BOTH called to be pure and abstain from sexual immorality. The sad thing is that the majority (not all) of people are not willing to take marriage seriously and everyone feels like its their right to have premarital sex and have affairs during marriage (both males and females). Instead of teaching children what is right, we show them how to put condoms on bananas at age 9. Now just because a person messed up early in life doesn’t mean that they are automatic “outcasts of Christian or any society.” Jesus does promise us forgiveness from their past but only on one condition (I John 1:9 says it). “If we confess our sins (to God) He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” The writer is correct in saying that is wrong to impose or force values upon a person, but it is NOT wrong to show them the “RIGHT” way - after that, the person has to deal with that between themselves and God. A person’s past is cleansed and accepting a person who has had sex before marriage is what Jesus would tell us to do! Remember the adultress woman Jesus said, “He who is without sin, cast the first stone!” Jesus exposed the hypocrisy of the system first, then He brought up the woman’s problem (this is the part everyone forgets); Jesus told her “Go and sin no more!” Making Jesus our number one reason for living and a changed heart is what God asks of us to be pure. Some virgins (not all) may have outward purity, but mentally lust in their hearts (which is mental adultery). God wants us to see ALL of us for who we are - sinners in danger of hell if we don’t change or sinners who are forgiven if we do change and give our lives to JESUS. This, of course, is not to discourage virgins…they SHOULD wait until marriage to have sex, but they need to be more selective instead of rushing into their emotions if marrying a virgin matters so much to them! Remember also, one thing is accepting a person as a beloved Christian and not holding that person’s past - which is Biblical — another thing is considering a partner. It is wrong for someone to say, “Hey, you SHOULD marry a virgin” and it is just as wrong to criticize someone else and say, “You have no right to feel in your heart that you should marry a virgin.” That’s a person’s preference - just like some people like redheads, brunettes, or blondes — just like others like rough guys or tom boy girls vs some like sweet guys or girls — just like some people are more attracted to various races and others prefer staying with their own race (NONE OF THESE ARE WRONG as long as the motive isn’t discriminatory — it’s just that’s what a person likes when it comes to a partner and everyone has got to deal with the FACT that ALL people are different and are entitled to their own tastes! Lord willing, I would prefer to marry a virgin and yes I’m very picky, but that doesn’t mean that if I met someone who wasn’t, I wouldn’t marry her (but she would have to be honest about her past, she’d have to be everything I was looking for, and yes, I would have to forgive and let go…since when we sin now, we are offending our “spouse-to-be” and no it isn’t wrong to think this way…lastly, I would need to weigh out if I could live with this person for the rest of my days, because it is also unjust to say I would and then have it be a problem later in the marriage.

10. Jer on August 1st, 2007 6:33 am

    God did create sex. But for marriage. Marriage is a bond God wanted for two people to literally become one. Anything sexual outside of this union, is an abomination to God. The sad thing is that people who don’t know God have a hard time understanding that marriage is created by God. Something special. Too many people treat it like dating. And it is not the religious side of things that have brought diseases and teen pregnancy into the world, it’s actually the opposite. Sure, people who call themselves Christians mess up and do these things too, people are people, we are all human. But those who seriously chase after God, are clean and holy before Him. The devil wants to pervert something God created, like sex, something to enjoy. The devil makes it something dirty, not God, and not Christians. The devil wants to belittle females and makes them look like pieces of meat to males, at least that is what HollyWood wants us to think in most motion pictures. True Christians love marriage, love that union, and love sex for both pleasure and for bringing kids into the world. Abstinance does work, but not without knowing about God and His plan for our lives.

11. Chelsea on August 1st, 2007 8:33 am

    Unfortunatley, the world we live in is indoctrinated by the cult mentality religion perpetuates on the entire populace. I guess I understand from a philisophical stand point that people seem to think they need religion to feel their lives are whole, but the evils it perpetuates just seem to far outweigh the good. Through out all of history religion has been the justification for wars, massacres, bigotry, sacrifices, avarice, and abuse of power. I hope that in the next century our world begins to be enlightened, and realize the only god you need is intellect and the ability to use it to educate those who do not know its power. Do not be afraid of yourself, all of yourself, your sexuality included. Enjoy the life you have been given do not allow yourself to be repressed by ideology that was conceptualized by men thousands of years dead and perpetuated by the corrupt and short sighted to control and manipulate the minds and souls of modern men and women.

12. Rev. Makeupson on August 1st, 2007 9:23 am

    Yes, sex is a wonderful gift from God and He is not upset that we humans enjoy it - within the confines of marriage. The problem comes in when we abuse sex by having it outside of marriage and with multiple partners. Aids, herpes, unwanted pregnancies, etc. can be a result of ignoring God’s command. He established the “sex only in marriage” command for our protection, not as a punishment but to keep US safe from the negatives of sex outside of marriage. This is love. Forgiveness is also a gift from God. He said we are to forgive one another 7 x 70 times a day, just as we are to be forgiven. If your friend has asked God’s forgiveness, and He gave it, who are you to do less. Are you greater than God? Ask God to forgive your jusgemental attitude, forgive your friend, ask her to forgive you, and hopefully a real relationship can begin. Oh! Both of you should get medical exams to assure no adverse consequences from prior relationships are present. God Bless You Both!

    A Minister

13. John on August 1st, 2007 10:16 am

    My wife and I are both virgins when we got married. Our relationship is so special; everything we do, even when we quarrel, there is always this special bond between us that kept us together. I have friends who is in and out in relationships. They are always looking, and doing a lot of comparison between this guy and that gal. The more they compare, the more imperfections they seem to find. Love is the essence of life, not an item on a shopping list! I admire your view on women liberation and freedom to sex enjoyment. You’ll find it rather unpleasant when you have reached the extreme of both. And Dan & Jennifer, from your YouTube video, I say you need to get out more. Get some tan. Have fun outdoor!

14. Trace on August 1st, 2007 12:11 pm

    For the most part your all dumber than a bag o hammers.

15. Dan and Jennifer on August 1st, 2007 12:24 pm

    We usually delete personal attacks or downright foul stuff, but had to approve this last one strictly for comic relief.

16. Chris on August 1st, 2007 1:09 pm

    Dan, Your real question seems to be one of Faith and YOUR own relationship with YOUR beliefs. Beliefs are not facts and are meant to be questioned as new information(living your life) comes your way. You ran around your own sexual past(if any??), but what I took from your letter was that YOU made the CHOICE based on YOUR beliefs(which isn’t the same as Faith)to not date or get to know “people who I knew that I would not want to stay with”. You didn’t mention when or how you ‘discovered’ your fiancee’s !!!??????? past,(by the way you should not have been poking around HER bathroom and looking under a Big Mess[negative, negative]), but anyway, her past is HER Past. It is in the past and cannot ever be anything different than what it is. If you can re-read your letter objectively, you have really de-valued your Fiancee’s life because it didn’t meet YOUR EXPECTATIONS, and conflicted with the beliefs (rules) you have set for YOURSELF. She CANNOT EVER be a never- married, never- divorced, unsexual being again; and that is nothing that needs YOUR forgiveness. ” She loves me with everything”, your words. Well she better start loving herself a little too and as Terry Grinnalds said RUN GIRL RUN. RUN AS FAST AND AS FAR AS YOU CAN. Leave her alone until you can get whats real straight in your own head.

17. Chris on August 1st, 2007 3:40 pm

    Just another thing to add to my above comment, she may never be able to be un-messy either if you want to get really real. Just something else to think about.

18. Chris on August 1st, 2007 4:00 pm

    So sorry, my above comments are directed to RAFAL’s letter NOT to Dan. Sorry Dan, I apologize.

19. Dan and Jennifer on August 1st, 2007 4:04 pm

    Hey Chris,

    Good thing, because I was really confused as I read through about the first half of it. We get our share of criticism with the topics we talk about, but it just wasn’t clicking for me.

    Have an awesome day!
    Dan

20. Jeff Kee on August 2nd, 2007 12:05 am

    Well, I guess heaven’s out of reach for me anyhow, according to some bible thumpers here (such as David) so I may as well get it on with more women I find across the world as I play and travel.

    If I’m already doomed according to the Book of Corinthians, well, I have lost all hope.

    DUHHHHH.

21. Jeff Kee on August 2nd, 2007 12:08 am

    As for the guy who wrote that letter :

    I can kinda see where he’s coming from. When I was 16 (and a virgin) I had this girl at school who was so eager for me. My friends thought I should go for her but I just couldn’t - she was 15 but she had already had an 18 yr old boyfriend and slept around with a few guys already. My friends’ logics were “she’ll put out, you’ll be cool to lose your virginity fast.” whereas for me it was a bit uncomfortable. I guess it’s the male part in me that did not want to be the underdog in that game, and also some sort of intimidation based on how I was raised a bit to the conservative side (not too conservative though).

    That being said, I think it would be worthwhile for him to get around it - it might be even more pleasing to know that the “wild” girl is now settling down for the one special guy. You’ve tamed her. You should be proud of it, and just accept it as a blessing that she’ll go towards monogamy for you.

22. Jeff Kee on August 2nd, 2007 12:16 am

    Oh, and if God created marriage, like some of you say above, who created divorce???

    So, somehow, religiously, it’s OK if a person gets married, fucks, divorces, marries again, fucks again, and goes through this? Is that person better than the other person who didn’t rush into a marriage but still had very fulfilling relationships with plenty of good sex and communication?

    Also, sexual connection is a very important factor for a successful relationship - how the hell do you figure that out before you get married if you cannot have pre-marital sex?

    Marriage is a man-made conception and an economic unit created by need for a structured society. Get over it. God didn’t make marriage.

23. Ronnie on August 2nd, 2007 6:25 am

    Since when does a woman (or a man for that matter) have to apologize for not being a virgin? She can’t help having been in prior relationships so why does she need forgiveness for it like she’s done something wrong? How immature to expect that she should be a virgin. Didn’t this guy know that most people by a certain age aren’t virgins? What, does he live in a box? Sounds like he’s out of touch with reality. If she lied to him that’s one thing but I didn’t get the sense that this was about deception. Unless I missed something?

    If virginity is that important to this guy why did he get involved with a divorced woman? A-Duh! This one’s a no brainer! And what gall to act like she should be a virgin! Like she doesn’t have the right to have been in other relationships? She’s already an adult, it’s not like that should be so suprising. And I suppose now she’s good for no one now that she has already been with other people? Oh yeah, let’s throw her on the dung heap, she’s used goods!

    Puhleeze, this guy doesn’t even deserve half the respect you gave him. He shows no respect for his partner, that’s for sure.

24. Dealing With Her Past Sexual Relationships | UndergroundAttraction.com on August 2nd, 2007 5:50 pm

    […] that's enough ranting for one day.  I do recommend you take a look at this article at Dan & Jennifer's site.  Then read some of the comments that people left.  Pretty interesting stuff… Tags: […]

25. Josh on August 3rd, 2007 7:15 pm

    I would first like to start of by saying that I agree with the advice you all gave Rafal. If he loves his fiancé, he should be able to look past what he perceives as past mistakes.

    Secondly, I would like to point out that you all seem to demonize religious fundamentalism when the issue isn’t religion, it is how a person is applying these concepts sparingly and being hypocritical about when to enact his beliefs. If Rafal followed what he is attempting to judge his wife with, he would never have had sex, and he wouldn’t be having it in his current relationship, and MOST OF ALL wouldn’t be judging her about what he perceives as past mistakes in the first place.

    As one gentleman put it, Christians do not preach about the evils of sex. We preach against PREMARITAL sex. I’ve grown up in a very religious environment where we hold conservative views about sexual relationships and I have no reservations or fears about the prospect of a sexual relationship within my marriage. We believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong. Regardless of what YOU believe, it is unfair for you to call us “close-minded” or “judgmental” because of the beliefs we espouse. Ironically, it makes you rather close-minded and judgmental for doing so.

    There is nothing unhealthy about wanting to preserve one’s virginity until after marriage. Your reasoning is a bit transparent anyway. From my experience, Rafal is an unhealthy rarity in the religious community. You speak as if EVERY man who believes like me only values a woman as an object and for their sexuality, and that simply isn’t true. I am in a relationship right now with someone who shares my beliefs about premarital sex, yet both of us have had sex with other people. I don’t hold it against her, just as she doesn’t hold it against me. I could no more judge her for her past sexual relationships than I could if she partook in ANY thing that I view is immoral or wrong. It simply isn’t my place to be upset with her about it. I’ve yet to have sex with her, and I hope that if I ever do, it will be after a wedding ceremony.

    Besides, the guilt that you seem to believe we have for having sex outside of marriage is completely against the basis of Christian thought, and that is that through the mercy of Christ, we can live a life WITHOUT guilt about our past mistakes. I don’t beat myself up about committing what I believe is a sin. If someone does, they obviously do not understand what the Christian faith really preaches.

    “Perhaps she will even know what she is doing?” That is the most ignorant reason for advocating premarital sex I’ve ever heard. Think about it. If my first sexual encounter was with my wife on our wedding night, how would it be any different than my first sexual encounter as a 16 year old boy? As a couple, we can still discover new things about our sex life, just as if we were with other people. The only difference is that we will discover them together. I don’t understand what is unhealthy about that.

    I am rambling, and really can’t address all of the false assumptions you all have made about what we believe. Essentially, you are guilty of the same prejudicial, hypocritical, “close-minded” attitude you accuse us of having. I find it shocking that you are attempting to advise people about their sexual relationships and you are not prepared to take their beliefs into consideration simply because you disagree.

    From your perspective, if there is nothing wrong with a sexual relationship outside of marriage, what is wrong with waiting until after marriage to have sex if that is what both people want? Would you ostracize a heterosexual for not having homosexual desires? No, because you realize that not everyone is different. Where as I desire to have a sexual relationship with one person, and to discover everything about my sexuality with them over a lifetime, another person may prefer to engage in what I would view as promiscuous sexual relationships. It is extremely ignorant of you to view what we believe as some disease of which we must be cured. I am just as happy with my relationship as anyone else. I could show you hundreds of married couples who feel the same way I do. Perhaps you should be a bit more “open-minded” about other people’s beliefs.

26. Dan and Jennifer on August 4th, 2007 10:36 am

    Hi Josh.

    We do not ostracize anyone for their beliefs or choices in life. That’s exactly the point that we’re trying to make with this article. In short there’s nothing wrong with waiting and nothing wrong with NOT waiting. It should be an individual choice and we should not be judged for that choice - whichever way we decide to go.

    We’re not the ones judging here - the man in this article is the one judging his girlfriend for her past decisions. We have nothing against religion or Christianity and were just stating an observation that individuals with a strong religious upbringing ‘tend’ to be more judgemental of others. Certainly not everyone behaves this way, but from our life experiences and the questions we receive, it seems very common.

    We don’t pretend to understand everyone’s individual beliefs…

    We do not pretend nor claim to be medical doctors or counselors. When someone asks us for advice, we simply tell them what we would do in a similar situation - that’s what advice is.

27. Harveen on August 6th, 2007 11:34 am

    Coming from an East Indian background, I can only say one thing: get over it! Virginity and the entire concept related to it is outdated!
    I’ve heard so many stories how men have wanted to leave the “virgin” they married ’cause, gasp! she’s been with a man or several. I mean, what kind of sick, egotistical, inferiority complex imbued guys are these.
    Instead of appreciating a woman for her wonderful qualities, and probably the pleasure she brings to his bed (thanks to her experience), all these men can do is have issues with the fact they weren’t the first. And that tells me what? Yeah-he’s not very good!

28. mike on August 7th, 2007 7:57 pm

    I don’t think that most religous people think that they need to change and save you, if you have had sex before marriage. Most are smart enough to know that you have had experience. I think that the real issue may be if they feel that you have had many partners. Most of them don’t feel that they need to save you if you had sex before getting together with them. I think it’s a naive point of view to think that’s how most religous people feel. They have a problem with “getting around”, not the actual act. The interpretation of religous text is another thing. I have heard varying viewpoints. Most people that have researched the subject seem to feel that it does not say that having sex before marriage is a sin.

29. Josh on August 13th, 2007 8:16 am

    I’m sorry if I seem hostile, it just seems as though you are demonizing Christian fundamentalism when that isn’t necessarily the issue. If I believe that premarital sex is wrong, surely its my right to do so. I don’t understand why Christians are so “closed minded” when they stand up for their beliefs and others are applauded for expressing what they believe.

30. Dan and Jennifer on August 13th, 2007 9:17 am

    I can’t speak for everyone in this discussion, but Dan and I are not against Christianity and feel that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs.

    It’s the ‘fundamentalism’ aspect that we have great issue with. And by fundamentalists, we mean those who feel that everyone needs to share their beliefs and do not accept the belief systems of others. (Many of these people will kill or die trying to convert others.)

    These are the close minded individuals that we are referring to. Not all Christians are closed minded. Many are wonderful people. The people that we ’slam’ are the ones who are bitter and judgemental of others and feel that I need to agree with them and their beliefs.

    On the premarital sex issue… It is absolutely your right to wait and it is the right of others not to. The important thing in a relationship is that you are with someone who shares your beliefs - or someone that you can accept their beliefs when they’re different from yours

31. Eddie on August 14th, 2007 2:20 am

    Dan and Jennifer

    I am a guy and in a similar position to Rafal. I am sympathetic to both parties. Rafal is trying to deal with his unwanted emotions … yes he says some dumb things, but he too is a product of his environment, choices etc.

    Thanks for your disclaimer, your honesty etc. I liked what you said (and found it personally helpful). Ultimately I believe you are right, he needs to accept her or move on.

    I think you are a little hard on “fundamentalism” (lets just say conservative Christians or cC for short, I find it less pejorative). I am socially conservative, I think the ideal situation is for each person to only have sex with one other (their spouse). This is my opinion: lets say it is representative of cCs generally.

    I think there is a tension between promoting these values within cC, and not stigmatising those who have different views (eg OK with pre-marital sex) and those who hold these views, but lapse either occasionally or regularly. IDEALLY this tension would not exist, but because refraining from sex is difficult and to a certain extent unnatural, it gets talked about a lot, which leads to the guilt etc.

    There is a PART of cC that deliberatly promotes misinformation about sex (eg that condoms not particularly effective or that having sex before marriage will ruin your life). This I think is wrong, since it is deliberate manipulation.

    thanks again!

32. Dan and Jennifer on August 14th, 2007 3:19 pm

    Hi Eddie.

    You are right… We can be a little harsh, or at least the word fundamentalism, can be a little harsh. It’s definitely evoked emotion in a lot of folks! But that’s our goal here is to get people talking and thinking…

33. Dan on November 1st, 2007 6:50 pm

    Religious Fundamentalists and some Christians attempt to rationalize their opinions by saying this and that about what they think the Bible says. It is interesting that these same persons only hear what they believe from their ministers or their reading of
    their version of the Bible. A minister by the name of Darwin Chandler researched every text in the Bible that suggests any mention of sex or sexuality and using the best Biblical research methods with the original language meanings in context and discovered that what modern religion says about sexuality is totally incorrect. For example Adultery does not mean sex with someone who is not your wife. In the bible Adultery means taking something without permission which could mean land, oxen, donkey, or any other possession of another including his wife. If permission was given it was NOT adultery. There are many instances of patriarchs having more than one wife and no rebuke from their God. King David took Bathsheba and had sex with her and he was only rebuked because David had the husband killed in battle to avoid the permission requirement. David even had more than one wife at that time. where these people get their opinions is strange.
    If one is desirous of reading Chandlers book check the internet address
    and you can download or read this book called Divine Sex. I would really like to see those who post and use religion spend time really researching the answers they give before giving a quote or verse that is probably interpreted incorrectly or understood within the religious bias that so many religions support.

34. Gary on February 28th, 2008 12:21 pm

    What a delightfully thought provoking article. Even better is the dialogue that has sprung from it. There are many who have posted from two dimetrically opposed and equally extreme positions. (I am of course speaking of the Atheists and the Legalists among you) I am not writing to either of those groups as it is impossible to have a productive discourse with those whose minds are closed to discovering truth beyond their own understanding. But to the rest of us who search for truth…

    First, I am a Christian and proud of it. Second, I am heartsick at those who would speak so vocally for Christianity and destroy the witness of the church to a world that so desperately needs God’s message of love and forgiveness. But for these comments I will address the issue of sexuality and the church since that is the focus of the article. Obviously my views are based on the premis that the Christian Bible represents God’s revelation and complete truth. If you reject this belief then save us both the aggrevation and skip the rest of my post.

    I was raised to believe sex outside the bounds of marriage was absolutely sinful. In fact I have preached and taught this myself many times over the years. But I was also raised to study the word on my own and not take everything a preacher told me at face value. One truth in studying scriptue is to analyze any interpretation in light of other scripture. When we find an apparent contradiction we must recognize that our interpretation is in error. There is perhaps no more difficult issue to deal with than sexuality in understanding God’s Word. To those of you who believe there is absolutely no room for disagreement in believing God forbids sex outside of marriage I urge you to apply true principles of Biblical research to your beliefs. I did and found out my positions, which I had been taught were absolutely unquestionable, were not supported in scripture. Some in this discussion have defined fornication as sex outside marriage. A basic study into the original greek will show this definition comes from church tradition and not from God’s Word. Sexual Immorality is another catch phrase to mean whatever the preacher or church wants to define it as. Without going into great length suffice it to say I was shocked at what I found when looking honestly at this issue.

    When we study God’s word we find many great men of the faith have enjoyed tremendous sexual freedom that was and is Blessed by God. Our Christian views that so narrowly define “God’s plan” for sexuality simply do not hold up to God’s word. It takes courage to reach such a controversial position, but it is absolutely necessary if we are honest in our search for truth. Many men of courage have been severely persecuted by the church and its members when they have challenged views that were held as absolute. From these brave individuals willing to challenge false beliefs in the church we have seen the coming of the Reformation, the abolition of slavery, the end of female oppression, and many other horrors justified by the “church”. It is my sincere belief that a reforming change within the church concerning our understanding of sexuality is long overdo.

    I don’t propose to change God’s word…rather to rightly divide it. Please don’t respond if you can not be rational. Healthy dialogue is welcome.