My Best Friend’s a Swinger - Will She Burn in Hell?

81 Responses to “My Best Friend’s a Swinger - Will She Burn in Hell?”

1. Jeff Kee on February 21st, 2007 1:56 am

   I can see that being a very very difficult situation. Call me conservative if you like but I absolutely believe in monogamy, don’t care what the 21st century people say.

   While I disagree with that idea of being a swinging married couple, I also understand I am not in the position to judge…

   If I were you I’d still be friends with them. I don’t support George Bush or the war, but doesn’t mean I’m not friends with Republicans!

2. Dan and Jennifer on February 21st, 2007 2:07 am

   Hey Jeff, thanks for the great example.

   Have an awesome day!
   Dan

3. Wendy Piersall :: eMom on February 21st, 2007 3:16 pm

   I don’t know if she’ll burn in hell, but you certainly won’t with this awesome blog you have here! Thanks for the plugin tips and keep up the awesome work. You certainly know how to add value (AND a little bit of fun to my day, too!).

   Wendy

4. J.R. on February 21st, 2007 8:48 pm

   I think it’s difficult for a married couples to swing and be right emotionally for each other.

   Does anyone know how to stay married without “extras” like this included in your lives?

   I think it’s tough enough already. Bring kids into it and wow. How will you do it?

   Sex is such a powerful lure, that it’s among the greatest temptations out there.

   In my opinion it’s tempting to think that it’s okay, but I know full well that it’s not going to add the sweetness to life.

5. J.R. on February 21st, 2007 8:49 pm

   Very good choice on your blog niche. Like I said before, it’s a powerful lure!

6. RacerX on February 22nd, 2007 4:15 am

   A very good blog! Very open-minded and non-judgmental of both the person who asked the question and her friends. Thanks for saying it as well as you did.

7. Edward Mills on February 22nd, 2007 7:06 pm

   I happen to live in an area where polyamory - a somewhat less charged and possibly more glamorous and spiritual term for swinging - is quite common. Some of our friends are involved in this community and my wife and I have discussed this possibility. We have both - independently - come to the conclusion that at this time in our relationship, polyamory is not right for us. And, at the same time, we deeply love and respect many of the people we know who have chosen to embrace this path.

8. Dan and Jennifer on February 22nd, 2007 10:33 pm

   Hey Ed,

   Yeah, the term swinging does indeed have a lot of perceived attached baggage. Which leads us to stereotypes, and that’s rarely useful.

   Thanks for sharing your always profound and insightful perspective. And for sharing that example from your own relationship - that’s very helpful.

   Have an awesome day!
   Dan

9. Rebecca on February 22nd, 2007 10:35 pm

   How very interesting Dan and Jennifer! I like what you guys have going on.

   I can really see how that sort of situation could cause some strain on friendships. I don’t even have any idea how I would react to this.. I wonder if it was more of a betrayal feeling for the person.. They did say basically "everyone knew but me"

   Very interesting content!

10. Marsha on February 22nd, 2007 10:40 pm

    Swinging is not a "belief system". It is not a religion, and it certainly IS a sin. Please don’t lead people to believe that this behavior is normal or right.

11. Monique on February 22nd, 2007 10:42 pm

    Marsha, not everyone has the same way as living as you do. The authors gave a non-judgemental answer as is correct.

    The person writing in wanted advice, not judgement.

12. Jeff Kee on February 22nd, 2007 11:17 pm

    Marsha - how the hell do you define that as a sin? There is no such definition as as sin. Different people believe in different things but the lack of respect for that is what causes problems.

    I personally won’t accept my partner getting involved in it but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong to do it.

13. SuperDave on February 23rd, 2007 5:43 am

    If you do not like their lifestyle you will drift apart anyway , that or be inducted in to their lifestyle.

    Some people just want to be married and still do whatever they want. Take a look at hollywood sometime…..

    SD

14. HM on February 23rd, 2007 5:47 am

    It is certainly not just “another belief system” It is totally wrong to have sex with anyone other than your married partner. It may not be the “popular” thing to be faithful but it is the right thing to do. There would not be sexual diseases if all people were abstinate before marriage and faithful and monogomous within marriage.

15. Top Blogger Roll Call: Ask Dan And Jennifer | J.R.’s Seeds For Wealth on February 23rd, 2007 9:07 am

    […] My Best Friend’s A Swinger – Will She Burn In Hell? […]

16. E on February 23rd, 2007 1:43 pm

    There is no way a swinging relationship will last. Why get married? It is extremely dammaging to families. Dirty little secrets are always found out and I don’t care if you think it’s not hurting your kids or the ones you will have, it does!! Who knows men, the kid may not be your’s.
    You’re all a bunch of selfish self satisfying degenerates. Try putting someone else in front of you and your selfish lust. That is what’s so wrong with people today, instead of going out and finding ways to make other people happy in a positive way you go out seeking your own personel fulfillment. No wonder other parts of the world look at us the way we do. Go Hollywood, for slowly creating a society that glamourizes sex, violence and drugs.
    Where’s the line? If it’s ok for you to do that then I suppose a child molester has their own excuses to do what they do. NAMBLA and the ACLU who defends them. What in God’ name is this world coming to!!

17. LOREN on February 23rd, 2007 2:09 pm

    IT IS NOT A BELIEF SYSTEM, IT IS A CHOICE. THE ANSWER SHE RECIVED WAS IT IS OK TO SWING, DON’T JUDGE THEM. WELL THE THING IS, IT IS IMMORAL. IT IS BASICLY AGREED ADULTRY. THE REASON FOR MARRIAGE IS TO TAKE A VOW TO LOVE AND HONOR ONE ANOTHER. SEX IS A FORM OF LOVE AND TO BRING SEX TO A LEVEL OF LESS THEN IT IS AND A FREE EXPRESSION MAKES ME WONDER WHAT OUR WORLD IS COMING TO. WHAT WOULD YOU SAY IF SHE STATED SHE CAN’T BELIEVE HER FRIEND IS CHEATING ON HER HUSBAND AND HE KNOWS ABOUT IT? WOULD YOU SAY DON’T BE JUDGEMENTAL IT IS A LIFE STYLE, OR IT IS OK BECAUSE THE HUSBAND IS NOT REACTING, OR IS NOT OK BECAUSE SHE IS BEING INTIMATE WITH ANOTHER MAN? WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE BETWEEN ADULTRY AND FREE WILL? WHERE DO WE SAY HEY THAT IS NOT RIGHT I WANT TO BE YOUR FRIEND AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING WILL ONLY LEAD TO EMOTIONAL AND SPIRTUAL DESTRUCTION.

18. RR on February 23rd, 2007 2:21 pm

    It’s sad to hear how many people lay judgement without knowing much about what they’re judging. The term “swinging” can mean many different things, and there can be many different levels of “swinging”.
    Most of the negative comments that seem to attack the people who venture into this lifestyle or belief system, stem from religious beliefs.
    People need to realize that not everyone shares their religious belifs. Speaking of religious beliefs, those “behind closed doors” secrets are just as common in families who claim to be righteous.
    People need to think about what is worse, a couple that is honest with each other and decides to venture into sexual relationships with others together, or individuals in a couple that cheat on each other and lie to each other as a way to protect the other spouse. Any person who claims that they have no physical or sexual attraction to someone other than their spouse after marriage is just lying to themselves. Those “swingers” have just found a way to minimize the reasons others use to lie and cheat. I’m not saying that everyone cheats, but it’s proven that in over half the married couples husbands or wives cheat, and it’s much higher depending on how you define cheat, ie. sexual contact vs emotional cheating.
    I hope I’ve given some of you something to think about before you are so quick to judge. And to the girl who wrote the question, there is an obvious reason you were “kept out of the loop”, and your response to finding out is why. You should thank yoru friends for not telling you.

19. A-Cee on February 23rd, 2007 2:27 pm

    Well E I can tell you the world is not coming to an end because someone decides that they want to have sex with someone other than their spouse. My husband and I just celebrated our fourth wedding anniversary and we have also been swingers for the same amount of time. It is fun. We were together four years before we got married and had discussed it then but never decided it was for us until we actually got married. I think once we made that final commitment to each other we felt secure enough to take on the swinger lifestyle. It has been amazing. It’s made our relationship so much more passionate and it is such a ego boost to know how much another person is willing to do to be with and satisfy us. Trust me sex and love do not mean the same thing, so when we’re swinging it is sex and when we’re together it is love making. If and when we decide to have kids it stops but for now we are just having protected, 100% of the time, sex. Life is great.

20. MIKAL on February 23rd, 2007 3:06 pm

    WHEN WE AS MANKIND FORGET THAT GOD CREATED WOMAN AS THE PERFECT GIFT, THE COMPLETION IN OUR LIFE, AND THAT WE SHOULD TREAT HER AS A GIFT FROM GOD, THEN WE HAVE TOTALLY BLOWN IT. BOTH HUSBAND AND WIFE SHOULD PUT EACH OTHER ON A PEDASTAL AND ALLOWING EITHER TO BE A SEXUAL PASS AROUND TOY JUST DOESN’T CUT IT. ANY MAN OR WOMAN THAT IS MARRIED OR IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER "DEFINATELY" HAS THE ABILITY TO SATISFY EACH OTHER IF THEY TRUELY WANT TO AND ARE OPEN WITH EACH OTHER. IF NOT THEN YOU DON’T NEED TO BE WITH THE ONE WHO WANTS TO BE AS I PUT IT, A SEXUAL PASS AROUND TOY, UNLESS OF COURSE ONE DAY YOU WANT TO END UP WONDERING JUST WHO’S CHILD IS IT AND WHICH ONE GAVE YOU THAT SEXUAL DISEASE.

21. Keith on February 23rd, 2007 3:24 pm

    For starters those of you who are using religious conviction to create judgment on concepts such as sin miss the point completely. I do agree that having multiple partners within a relationship can be very damaging because of the risk of disease, and getting pregnant by someone other than your spouse. One thing that I am sure of is if you require sex from someone other than your spouse you must not be getting fullfillment. I would first work on that and if that can’t be obtained then maybe you should end that relationship and find one more satisfying. I do believe that people naturaly want to be intimate with other people, however we need to be mature enough not to make these thoughts actions.

22. Nathu on February 23rd, 2007 3:59 pm

    Why married if you have to swing.

23. RR on February 23rd, 2007 4:51 pm

    Mikal, you start off making your argument which is based soley on religion, which I see as a complete falicy, the argument, not the religion. However, you are rational and respectful, and then you end your comments with attacks of pregnancy and disease. I’ll bring up another fact about swinging, there is actually very little disease within the “lifestyle”. It is a tight community and people that explore sexually with others are, as A-Cee stated, mostly 100% safe. The term mostly 100% seems like an oxymoron, however, my point is those that are safe are always safe but there is a small group that isn’t always safe. Regarding pregnancy, again, when couples are trying for a child, they’re not swinging. Most women in the lifestyle are on the pill for pregnancy reasons (meaning they’re not currently trying and don’t want to have to use safe sex practices with their spouse) and use condoms with others, so pregnancy is very very rare.

    My wife and I have been in the lifestyle for about 10 years, married for 9, and have enjoyed it throughout. It’s not for everyone, however we’re more comfortable and trusing of the other than any couple we know. It takes away the incentive to lie.

    Why get married Nathu? Because she’s my soulmate and I can’t go a day without her. That doesn’t mean that we don’t enjoy sexual encounters with others.
    Here’s a little lesson for those who are ignorant of the lifestyle. As a swinging couple, we ALWAYS play together and that’s the way most couples are. We might only involve others in our sex life maybe 5-6 times a year, it’s not all the time. There are some couples that do it every weekend and that’s fine, but for us it’s just something we do occasionally.

    Keith, you say one person can satisfy you sexually or you should get out, then you follow with it’s natural to want to be intimate with another and we should be mature enough to not. First of all if you’re saying it’s natural to want sex with another, that means that it’s not because you’re not being satisfied with your partner, rather it’s natural to want to explore. Why can’t the maturity comment apply to exploring? Why can’t people be mature enough to seperate Love from Sex and allow that expoloration with others? You said yourself it’s a natural feeling.

24. Bob on February 23rd, 2007 5:13 pm

    “We do not judge you for your beliefs or actions nor do we believe that you should judge your friends for their beliefs or actions. We feel there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’”

    Where do you draw the line between ‘acceptable’ beliefs or actions and ‘unacceptable’ ones? If someone ‘believes’ their neighbor to be the spawn of the devil and kills them and burns their house to the ground, should we NOT judge them since we feel there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’?

    If you do not pass judgement on one behaviour, how can you do so on any other? At what point does ‘anything goes’, and the destructive self-indulgence it spawns, become unacceptable?

    Society judges all the time. We pass laws to enforce those judgements for us, to allow society as a whole to balance the wants and desires of the one against the greater needs of the whole. This attitude of “if it doesn’t hurt anyone, what harm can there be” is the tip of a very slippery, very steep slope. Our ongoing acceptance of less and less and less has led to a degradation of our schools and our communities. Let’s not teach our children self-restrain and a sense of community — let’s just let them think it’s OK to take whatever they want, at the expense of others, and hope they figure out this ‘community’ thing on their own.

    Is it any wonder we have overcrowded prisons, corrupt politicians, and have to lock ourselves in our homes at night to feel safe?

    Explain your discomfort to your friends. If they respect you as much as you respect them, they will simply not discuss this aspect of their life while in your company. If they feel they have the ‘right’ to do as they please, perhaps they were not the friends you truly felt them to be.

25. KJE on February 23rd, 2007 5:38 pm

    I think that the swinging phenomenon will bear the fruit that anyone who dabbles in it will receive. I think that those who are sharing about the problems that will be associated with this type of lifestyle are trying to warn people. Just like if someone was about to be hit by a car, would it be seen as “judgemental” if someone yelled, “Get out of the way!”?

    What I find fascinating is the understanding of the use of the word “Judging”. Our society has misused and abused that word more than anything else in order to justify acts that promote the destruction of a society. The word “judging” that is currently being used the context of this conversation comes from the Bible. And, the context that it is used comes through by not thinking of one’s self better than another human being. With saying that, it’s not a stick that can be used as a defense to say when an act is destructive to individuals.

    Can anyone share statistics on the benefit of “swinging” on a society? Whether doing it on the sly or open, where is the benefit? No matter how a person can justify this lifestyle, why not start promoting this in the schools? Why not share this way of life to other countries who will see us as great people for sharing such a noble idea? No wonder other countries despise our nation for the “ideas” we want to promote.

26. JFC on February 23rd, 2007 6:10 pm

    I have some comments. The first is that a real life example from some friends lead to two (2) of the swingers wanting more “swing” time together and causing two divorces. The grass was greener in their case. This ruined their respective marriages and their friendships which also affected their children.

    The second is you are sharing the one of the most important people in your life with someone else, not to mention that you are sharing a very intimate part of yourself with someone else who is basically a stranger. How can that ever be a good thing?

    This behavior demonstrates that you have no committment to the marriage and although some may respond that this extra sex is not related to the committment of marriage, that is a blatant lie that people tell themselves. You cannot separate the sex from the committment to the marriage. Otherwise if what you’re looking for is sex, why get married? This turns the relationship into a marriage of convenience. I can’t see any reason you would you stay together and work on the marriage because the committment is non-existent.

    Also, from a christian belief standpoint, we are called to love unconditionally. However, we do not have to accept the behavior. We are called to a higher standard for our own behavior and that includes our beliefs. And while we can’t judge others, we are called to be “fruit inspectors”.

    You should make your concerns known and be honest with your friends.

27. GM on February 23rd, 2007 6:46 pm

    Hi All,

    At the risk of incurring the wrath of the other posters. I will have to take the middle position on this topic. If you and your spouse want to swing and are ok with it then have right at it, if thats what floats your boat. I am too afraid of the consequence. Your spouse is going to find someone who is better in the sack than you are. A better fitting piece of equipment or has better skills in one area or another. Lasts longer, more responsive or is more willing to perform certain acts than you. Then what happens? Then The “lifestyle” as you call it is not for me and my wife. I will freely admit that I am not secure enough in my own self that I could deal with this. My wife is a little more secure and could deal with it apparently if I was ok with it. She is of the opinion that if both spouses know about it and are ok with it, anything goes. I however, am of the the opinon that after the promises we made to each other to forsake all others, we are not able to give away what doesn’t belong to us any more.

    Thats right folks she owns me, mind body and soul. I cannot give to another woman what belongs to my wife, it isnt mine to give. The same with her, she is mine and I am hers. It’s old fashioned I know, but it works for us.

28. MIKAL on February 23rd, 2007 8:30 pm

    WHEN PEOPLE SEE SOMETHING THEY WANT ENOUGH THERE’S ALWAYS AN EXCUSE AS TO WHY IT SHOULD BE ACCEPTABLE, BUT IT STILL DOESN’T MAKE IT RIGHT.

29. RR on February 23rd, 2007 8:41 pm

    Wow, what a topic. I’m sure glad to see such a heated debate from different sides on this issue. I’ll try to chime in again.
    Bob, you make absurd claims comparing swinging to murdering your neighbor. Right or wrong can be logically defended in the terms of murder, theft, and child molestation as well as other crimes. When you’re talking about 4 concenting adults deciding to engage in sexual activities together or “Swap” as some call it, where is the logical reason that such activites can’t be tolerated or that it is wrong. Please don’t quote the bible or other religious text. You can’t assume that the world will live by your religious beliefs. Secondly the bible also says that men can’t shave their beards. I’ll give a quote that will hit home to any seafood fans. “Anything that lives in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be detestable to you” (Leviticus 11:12) Sorry if your a fan of lobster or shrimp, you’re commiting an abomination by eating it. Have you ever just washed something that had mildew on it, sorry that’s a SIN. How many women have taken two doves or pigeons to a priest to be sacraficed after her period to attone for her “uncleanliness”? Guess what, it’s all in the bible, so, let’s not pick and choose what from the bible is a SIN and what isn’t.
    You talk about taking at the expense of others. Where is the expense to others in swinging? Consenting adults engaging in the exact same activite that you and your wife engage in, only we might have different people in the room or switch partners, where is the expense to others?
    What happens with the slippery slope the other direction when someone else comes to you and says that the “woman on top” position is a SIN and that only the missionary position is acceptable? Or when someone comes to you and says that sex for pleasure and not pro-creation is also unacceptable, how do you respond to those critics. You and I are the same, we just have different lines as to what is and isn’t acceptable in the bedroom.
    Again, making any comparison of swinging to crowded prisons, corrupt politicians and locking our doors at night is such an unfair comment it discredits your argument.

30. E on February 23rd, 2007 8:55 pm

    I’m sorry but my belief stands. “couples married or otherwise” if you participate in this behavior you have no respect for yourself or partner. Most of you are young and have been anestisized over the years of exposure. If you are feeling the need to have multiple partners someone isn’t doing there job right in the first place. You can teach each other and love will only grow from there as well as your sex life. I see unhappy endings for most all who imbibe. You only think you’re happy doing this, but truly you are searching. Something is very lacking and what it is comes from within. You will be old and lonely no matter how many people are surrounding you. This all begins when you hop into bed with someone for the first time in your life and haven’t even gone on a date. Such low self esteem is the promoter.

31. RR on February 23rd, 2007 9:11 pm

    KJE, I like the way you structure your arguments. But when it comes to teaching in the schools, what aspect of your sex life do you want taught in the schools? The schools teach the act of pro-creation and physically how that works. They do not and should not teach sexual practices.
    Judging as a whole is obviously an everyday occurance we all do. However when the judging becomes attacks on people for their beliefs vs your own is when the judging has crossed a line. (not saying that’s what you’ve done, just answering your comment on judging)
    Regarding other countries, I promise that swinging and multiple partners has been around long before the United States. In fact, the practice is much more common in European countries than in the US.

    JFC, how can you blame swinging on the ruined relationship / friendship of two people and make any kind of claim that it wouldn’t have happened without swinging. More than half of the marriages today end in divorce and many of those are completely ruined relationship / friendships that affect the kids. In fact, I’ll try to find the reference (a book on “The lifestlye” but it makes very clear that divorce is much less common in swinging couples than in “monogomous relationships”. And I put that in quotes because the majority of monogomous relationships (yes, over half, look it up) are anything but. The just claim to be monogomous and hide all of their indiscretions from their partner. Yes, more than half of the marriages today have a partner that does or has cheated.
    What’s funny is that cheating is much more widely accepted than a couple that agrees to sexual exploration together. Please explain that to me.
    I state again, I got married because I love my wife more than any other. She’s my soulmate and I love spending very minute I can with her, even if we’re sexually involved with another at the time. I know that’s hard to understand, but for many, it works and it’s not for everyone. I don’t criticize your monogomy or implied monogomy to 1/2 the married couples out there, so why do we get criticized?

    Mikal, why if your way right and this isn’t right?

32. RR on February 23rd, 2007 9:17 pm

    GM, if it’s your wife’s and not yours to give away, and she thinks it’s Ok, should you be worried?? ..lol.. Can she then give it (yours) away? Sorry, had to say it, you just left it too open.. haha..

33. memphis on February 23rd, 2007 10:52 pm

    Why is it wrong to care for more than one person?
    Would it be such a bad thing to be cared for by more than one person?

    It’s not something I have tried but I don’t think that being loved and made to feel special should be overlooked because someone else thinks it is bad because of their own belief system, that should be private anyway, and not forced on others.

34. RacerX on February 24th, 2007 5:04 am

    RR, good for trying to bring a little sanity to this thread.

    The fact is that these people passing judgment on others do so because they need that to make themselves feel better about themselves. They fear those different from them, whether it’s color, sex, religion, etc. A strong and secure person feels no need to pass judgment on others because they neither feel they are beneath anyone else or above them. Insecure people must pass judgment to tear-down others to make themselves feel superior and quiet the screaming insecurities and fears inside themselves.

    The fact is, if no one ever said anything about it, it would still be going on. Just these self-righteous few would no know it and their life would still be no different than it is right now.

    A few of my favorite quotes about this exact subject from some very wise people:

    “Conventionality is not morality. Self-righteousness is not religion.” ~ Charlotte Bronte

    “We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another.” ~ Jonathan Swift

    “There is hardly anyone whose sexual life, if it were broadcast, would not fill the world at large with surprise and horror.” ~ W. Somerset Maugham

    “When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic.” ~ Dresden James

    “I’m not sure I want popular opinion on my side — I’ve noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.” ~ Bethania McKenstry

    The last two are particularly suited to the naysayers about open relationships. They’ve been told something for so long that when an opposing idea comes along the messenger of it must be a raving lunatic.

    From KJE: “Can anyone share statistics on the benefit of “swinging” on a society? Whether doing it on the sly or open, where is the benefit?”

    Yes, I can. From a 2000 study of swingers done by Bellarmine University compared to the General Societal Survey:

    “As shown in Table 4 swingers are slightly more likely than the general population to say that they are members of a religious organization.”

    “The results, then, suggest that swingers in the sample are the white, middle-class, middle-aged, church-going segment of the population reported in earlier studies. They are, however, more “middle-of-the-road” politically than other studies have found and, at least when it comes to attitudes about sex and marriage, may be less racist, less sexist, and less heterosexist than the general population.”

    When asked the question “Among all things in life, how important is being married?” the responses from swingers were 56.7% said “Most” or “Very” Important”, 28.9% said “Somewhat Important”, and 14.4% said ” ‘Not Too’ or ‘Not At All’ Important”. By comparative the GSS survey found 50.8%, 22.1%, 27.2% respectively.

    Overall, swingers put a higher importance on being married then the general population does.

    “A final measure of the normalcy (as opposed to marginality) of the swinging population used in this research was the presence of abuse or dysfunctional family backgrounds in their histories… Contrary to the assumptions underlying the pathological view of swingers, no statistically significant differences between the groups were found. If anything, the data suggest that swingers may view human nature as “good” slightly more than the GSS population.”

    “How happy are the marriages of swingers? Table 14 compares how swingers and the G.S.S. sample of married persons rated the happiness of their marriages. Significant differences were found between the two groups, with swingers showing higher levels of happiness than married couples in the general population.

    Among swingers, is there a relationship between swinging and marital happiness? Two questions on the survey – one which asked about their relationships before swinging and the other about them after swinging – are cross-tabulated in Table 15. As the data shows, 62.6% of swingers found that swinging improved their marriages/relationships, 35.6% said their relationships stayed about the same, and only 1.7% said they became less happy. Even among those who said their marriages were “Very Happy” prior to swinging nearly half (49.7%) said they became happier. Among those with the most unhappy marriages 90.4% said their relationship became happier after swinging. It appears that, at least among the sample of swingers used in this research, swinging tends to improve the perceived quality of the couples’ marriages regardless of how satisfying it was before swinging.”

    “General life satisfaction was measured using two questions on the General Social Survey. Table 20 and Table 21 show the results of these two measures. Table 20 indicates that swingers rate themselves as significantly happier than the general population. Table 21 shows that swingers are significantly more likely to experience life as exciting rather than dull or routine. Although it could not be established in this research that swinging caused general happiness to increase, swingers do appear to lead happier and more exciting lives than non-swingers.”

    Wow… doesn’t that blow allot of myths and assumptions about swingers right out of the water?

35. RR on February 24th, 2007 5:39 am

    Racer, great post! Thanks for the hard facts.

36. KJE on February 24th, 2007 3:37 pm

    Well, evidently a nerve has been struck! I wanted to first address my responders.

    RR: Why not talk about sexual practices in school? I mean, kids will be adults someday, so why not talk about the “benefits” now? What’s the harm? I mean this lifestyle is “healthy” for the whole of society, right? Why keep it a secret?

    You are right, judging happens all the time. I think that we can agree that we will still live through the ordeal. Can we look at information presented and make rational choices that help our society instead of harm it? We live in a moral universe. Every action has a reaction. What a person sows, a person will reap. It’s assumed that this happens all over the world, swinging. The question comes down to the benefit of the society over a long term. Civilizations have been wiped out over the course of human recorded history. The first indicator of a society headed toward destruction is the breakdown of the family unit. Once the family unit is destroyed, the society is in shamble due to the foundation. And swinging is a benefit or a hindurance. Looking forward to that answer.

    RacerX: Your study is pretty fascinating. When was the study again? Oh yeah, 2000. So it’s 7 years. You know a study has more validity if there is a control group that has reptitious surveys that track the couples over decades! If you want to quote a 7 year study go ahead but make sure you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_marriage and go through the links and references of studies concerning open marriages and swinging. Take a look at the timetable for the studies. Come back and share with me over the foundation of a society of how it has helped again please?

    The study was over “…the white, middle-class, middle-aged, church-going segment of the population reported in earlier studies. They are, however, more “middle-of-the-road” politically than other studies have found and, at least when it comes to attitudes about sex and marriage, may be less racist, less sexist, and less heterosexist than the general population.”

    What a cross section of the U.S! I mean that proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that this random sampling of a cross section of the population constitutes the foundation of our society. What a benefit! How about I go and do a survey of rich, white business owners at a country club concerning how small businesses are faring in our inner cities across America? I am pretty sure I will have an answer that truly addresses the issue. It will be a great representation. I would challenge anyone to prove to me that over the course of the next decade, that the relationships involved in swinging will last the test of time. I guess that could be a little difficult since 50-60% of marriages are ending in divorce?

    What you won’t find is that there are marriages that are starting to get the real issue of the conflict. www.loveandrespect.com. Oh, and after 13 years of marriage for me, my “friends” that were involved in “extra curricular activities” within their marriages aren’t together now. I hope that truth will come out before others will become a statistic in this lifestyle.

37. RacerX on February 24th, 2007 4:55 pm

    Ah, KJE, you haven’t struck a nerve, because I’ve learned as Bertrand Russell once said “Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so.” There is no debating with someone who has just one point of view. But, I’ll address a couple of your comments above anyway.

    From KJE: “Why not talk about sexual practices in school? I mean, kids will be adults someday, so why not talk about the “benefits” now? What’s the harm? I mean this lifestyle is “healthy” for the whole of society, right? Why keep it a secret?”

    Simple, because it’s a personal choice and isn’t for everyone. Why don’t we teach extreme skiing or sky diving or bungee jumping or race car driving in school? Same reason. They are personal life choices, not reading, writing, and arithmetic.

    From KJE: “The question comes down to the benefit of the society over a long term. Civilizations have been wiped out over the course of human recorded history. The first indicator of a society headed toward destruction is the breakdown of the family unit. Once the family unit is destroyed, the society is in shamble due to the foundation. And swinging is a benefit or a hindurance. Looking forward to that answer.”

    You can no more predict what effect 0.01% of the world’s population has on the decline of civilization then any other factor other then outright murderous chaos. It’s much like the gay marriage debate. Fundies go around screaming “what about the children?!” and claiming it will destroy the traditional family as we know it and that the world will come to an end if we allow it. Yet, not one opponent yet of same-sex marriage has been able to support this theory in any way shape or form. Not one, has been able to show the sequence of events once that first domino has been pushed.

    Once again, it’s the fear of what others are doing rather than what you are doing.

    From KJE: “Your study is pretty fascinating. When was the study again? Oh yeah, 2000. So it’s 7 years.”

    And you are referring to Biblical scriptures, which are several peoples opinions, that were written 1,700 years ago. Not hardly a “study” in any sense of the word.

    Keep in mind that many of the opinions of so-called “experts” in marriage counseling and psychology never deal with happily married couples. They deal with marriages in trouble and base their opinions and write their articles based on that. These marriages were in trouble before they started swinging. In fact, they started swinging to try to “fix” or “spice-up” their marriage. Which is the wrong reason to do it. Most all swinger couples who’ve been in the lifestyle for any period of time will tell you that their marriage was far from needing fixing or spicing-up when they started swinging. Swinging is simply an extension of their already great relationship and sex life together. Again, a common misconception about swingers is that they swing because they are bored with each other. Well, a minority does and they leave the lifestyle as quickly as they enter it. The majority don’t.

    From KJE: “What a cross section of the U.S! I mean that proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that this random sampling of a cross section of the population constitutes the foundation of our society. What a benefit! How about I go and do a survey of rich, white business owners at a country club concerning how small businesses are faring in our inner cities across America? I am pretty sure I will have an answer that truly addresses the issue. It will be a great representation.”

    First, you obviously didn’t Google the study and actually read it before you made this post. From the intro to the study: “A total of 1187 questionnaires were returned. Of these, 95 were discarded because they were duplicates (probably reflecting “double-hits” on the return button) or for other reasons were determined to be invalid, leaving 1092 valid returns.”

    “While the General Social Survey selects subjects using a scientifically based, randomized, and therefore representative sample of Americans, the swingers surveyed in this research are not necessarily representative of all swingers in the U.S. They constitute a self-selected sample of members of swing clubs who chose to fill out an anonymous online survey about the swinging lifestyle. The sample is likely to be biased in favor of swingers who have experienced success with the lifestyle and to under-represent those who have dropped out of swinging or who have had negative experiences with it.”

    This is true. It probably was biased toward successful swingers since those that got into swinging to fix a bad marriage just as quickly leave, go to marriage counseling whereby the counselor then writes some opinionated article about how swinging destroys marriages (see above). Those that do it for the right reason don’t have problems, and this represents the majority. We’ve personally seen three couples in the lifestyle in our area split-up over the years. One was using it to “fix” their relationship (which it didn’t, it just prolonged it’s demise a few months), and the other two split-up because of reasons completely unrelated to swinging, stuff like money and blended-family issues (like many other American couples).

    “The sample of swingers used in this research presents a demographic profile of a person who is typically white, middle-aged, with two years of college education, previously divorced, in a current marriage that has lasted 10.5 years, and has been in the swinging scene about five years.”

    From this statement you can clearly see that those that swing for the right reasons stay married.

    “The subjects were predominately white at 90.4 percent of the sample. African-American’s were 4.1 percent of those sampled, Hispanic’s were 3.0 percent, and 1.5 percent indicated “other”.”

    Of course all surveys must be random, and the statement above shows the ethnic break-down of those responding. Other than being a survey of active, happy, married for quite a while swingers, the survey was pretty unbiased to economic and ethnic groups. They didn’t go searching Hispanics, whites, or blacks, or rich people to get the answers they wanted. It is just a basic profile of the average swinger.

    From KJE: “I would challenge anyone to prove to me that over the course of the next decade, that the relationships involved in swinging will last the test of time. I guess that could be a little difficult since 50-60% of marriages are ending in divorce?”

    Doesn’t 50% - 60% of ALL marriages end in divorce? How is this hardly a true statement? When less then 0.01% of the population actually swings, they are definitely not making-up the 50% of all divorces. Unless I’m missing the fuzzy math here somewhere.

    There is no hard evidence of divorce amongst swinging couples, however it is well estimated that less then 15% of swinger couples get divorced. More than three-times less then the rate of supposedly monogamous couples.

    ” KJE:What you won’t find is that there are marriages that are starting to get the real issue of the conflict. www.loveandrespect.com. Oh, and after 13 years of marriage for me, my “friends” that were involved in “extra curricular activities” within their marriages aren’t together now. I hope that truth will come out before others will become a statistic in this lifestyle.”

    Love and Respect.com is a Christian faith-based website and organization that charges $35.00 per person to go to one of there weekend “conferences” to learn how to love your spouse. A for-profit, religiously-biased source is hardly a good source for any honest and objective information.

    Your opinions are are one-sided and biased, without any objectivity at all. I’ve read ALL the studies, good and bad. I speak from both experience and education on the subject.

38. KJE on February 24th, 2007 7:18 pm

    My original question concerned benefit to the whole society? Now, did I miss something in your reply, RacerX?

    I hope that there will be a connection next time.

    RacerX: “Simple, because it’s a personal choice and isn’t for everyone. Why don’t we teach extreme skiing or sky diving or bungee jumping or race car driving in school? Same reason. They are personal life choices, not reading, writing, and arithmetic.”

    Again, you gave me “statistics” supposedly based on benefit and I asked why don’t we teach swinging in schools? Your answer completes that thought by…?

    RacerX: “You can no more predict what effect 0.01% of the world’s population has on the decline of civilization then any other factor other then outright murderous chaos. It’s much like the gay marriage debate. Fundies go around screaming “what about the children?!” and claiming it will destroy the traditional family as we know it and that the world will come to an end if we allow it. Yet, not one opponent yet of same-sex marriage has been able to support this theory in any way shape or form. Not one, has been able to show the sequence of events once that first domino has been pushed.

    Once again, it’s the fear of what others are doing rather than what you are doing.”

    Help me make the link to swinging and benefit to the society again, that’s all I’m asking? In regards to predictions of the fall of civilization, history has a way of showing man the do’s and don’ts of how to mess up a civilization. History on Roman culture stated that Rome first destroyed itself from inside before it was conquered from outside forces. And what were the common practices that eroded the moral fiber for that culture? All you need to do is look at what happened to the family unit.

    RacerX: “And you are referring to Biblical scriptures, which are several peoples opinions, that were written 1,700 years ago. Not hardly a “study” in any sense of the word.”

    I think this an assumption. Actually, I was referring to studies on the subject of marriage. Are you sure that the Bible is just about several people’s opinions? Doesn’t sound to me that you’ve actually tested that assumption.

    RacerX: “Keep in mind that many of the opinions of so-called “experts” in marriage counseling and psychology never deal with happily married couples. They deal with marriages in trouble and base their opinions and write their articles based on that. These marriages were in trouble before they started swinging. In fact, they started swinging to try to “fix” or “spice-up” their marriage. Which is the wrong reason to do it. Most all swinger couples who’ve been in the lifestyle for any period of time will tell you that their marriage was far from needing fixing or spicing-up when they started swinging. Swinging is simply an extension of their already great relationship and sex life together. Again, a common misconception about swingers is that they swing because they are bored with each other. Well, a minority does and they leave the lifestyle as quickly as they enter it. The majority don’t.”

    So let me get this straight, the “experts” don’t talk with people who have successful marriages, right? Well, that’s new information for me and I haven’t heard that one within academia. I am still waiting for the connection to benefit. I haven’t mentioned once attacking the individual who is involved in swinging. So the use of this paragraph is for what?

    RacerX: “First, you obviously didn’t Google the study and actually read it before you made this post. From the intro to the study: “A total of 1187 questionnaires were returned. Of these, 95 were discarded because they were duplicates (probably reflecting “double-hits” on the return button) or for other reasons were determined to be invalid, leaving 1092 valid returns.”

    No, you are right, I didn’t Google the study because I was still looking for the answer in my original question of benefit to society as a whole.

    RacerX: “Of course all surveys must be random, and the statement above shows the ethnic break-down of those responding. Other than being a survey of active, happy, married for quite a while swingers, the survey was pretty unbiased to economic and ethnic groups. They didn’t go searching Hispanics, whites, or blacks, or rich people to get the answers they wanted. It is just a basic profile of the average swinger.”

    Actually, not all surveys are random. You can have a survey in which you have a specific individuals specifically targeted within an organized meeting that doesn’t fit the criteria for randomized surveys. It’s one of many research tools in the area of research. We keep missing each other on this society and benefit thing. On another note, it’s assumed that you have to be white, middle-income and young to be the average swinger?

    RacerX: “Doesn’t 50% - 60% of ALL marriages end in divorce? How is this hardly a true statement? When less then 0.01% of the population actually swings, they are definitely not making-up the 50% of all divorces. Unless I’m missing the fuzzy math here somewhere.

    There is no hard evidence of divorce amongst swinging couples, however it is well estimated that less then 15% of swinger couples get divorced. More than three-times less then the rate of supposedly monogamous couples.”

    Now let’s take a look at this. Remember the link that I gave you earlier, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_marriage. It actually talks about the pros and the cons of an open marriage. Now it’s been studied that couples that engage in this type of behavior have a HIGHER incident of jealousy. Well, I don’t know about you, but jealousy left unresolved turns into anger. Anger left unresolved turns into unhealthy actions. Unhealthy actions, one would hope, lead to separation. There are legal aspects to this aparent lifestyle that would be a problem since in a court of law, adultery is still used as a means of filing for divorce which is pretty expensive. So, if I was a betting man would this lifestyle have odds in favor of a solid marriage over time? Did you Google the percent of marriages that end in divorce?

    RacerX: “Love and Respect.com is a Christian faith-based website and organization that charges $35.00 per person to go to one of there weekend “conferences” to learn how to love your spouse. A for-profit, religiously-biased source is hardly a good source for any honest and objective information.

    Your opinions are are one-sided and biased, without any objectivity at all. I’ve read ALL the studies, good and bad. I speak from both experience and education on the subject.”

    Oh no, do they charge a whopping $35 per person to go and learn about how to love and respect your mate? Stop the presses! That is totally dishonest. I mean in a capitilistic society, you charge money for materials, location, venue, markteting, etc.? Hold the phone! I know, that must be completely dishonest for them to do that. I am sure that this will prove that the information is totally terrible. Now, if a person wants to learn how to better himself/herself, doesn’t it usually cost money? I mean, I hope an individual would see themselves as valuable and spend some money on himself/herself. Maybe it’s indicative of our society that marriage needs to have the same level of importance in investing just as a 401K, IRA, and Stocks. Just a thought. And since you have read ALL the studies, good and bad as well as speak from both experience and education on the subject, then the answer that I have been waiting for is soon to appear on your next repy, right?

39. RR on February 25th, 2007 12:20 am

    KJE, I’m going to have to retract my comment about liking the way you structure your agruments. Your last post was emotional, and juvenille. Your entire last paragraph was pure sarcasm and it discredits your entire argument when you let your emotion get the best of you.
    Now, on to your other more rational comments.

    KJE Said “Why not talk about sexual practices in school? I mean, kids will be adults someday, so why not talk about the “benefits” now? What’s the harm? I mean this lifestyle is “healthy” for the whole of society, right? Why keep it a secret?”

    Sexual practices are not taught in school. If you want to take that argument, why aren’t they teaching kids what is the most pleasurable position for sex, or how to perform oral sex on your partner or any other private sexual act that I’ll spare the other readers from having to read. These are sexual practices that happen behind closed doors and for some reason you feel it’s necessary to use the “would you teach it to your kids?” argument. Would you teach your kids everything you and your spouse do in the bedroom or just let them learn for themselves as they become adults. However to help you understand, I’d be more than happy if my kids (once they become adults in a secure relationship) decided to explore with others in this manner, especially if it meant having as open and honest relationship as I have with my wife. It’s nothing I’m going to discuss or disclose to my children just as I’m assuming you’re not going to discuss whatever sexual act you last performed with your spouse, with your children. Another reason it shouldn’t be taught is that it takes a certain type of person and and certain type of relationship to engage in this type of lifestlye. Which is another reason we don’t try to “convert” couples. If it’s not something you and your spouse already want to do, I don’t want to “talk you into it.”

    Regarding your comments about the benefits to society as a whole, I think RacerX answered them very clearly in his posts however, as he later stated, you seem to have a problem accepting anything that’s in contrast to how your mind works or your belief system. With all the facts that were posted from the study, you refused to allow even the slightest credit to racer and his research. Now, in my response, what is the benefit of most things we do to society as a whole? Bunjee Jumping was mentioned earlier, what’s the societal benefit? Without one, should it be made illegal? Does everything you choose to do have to have a measurable societal benefit or can you do something just for fun? What is the societal benefit to oral sex? Should it be illegal? (I know some small towns already have old outdated ordinances that make oral sex illegal, but I’m trying to have a logical argument, so please don’t throw that at me) I could go on forever naming things we all do in our everyday lives that don’t show measurable improvement or any improvement on society for that matter, yet they’re widely accepted. (Racer, I want to be clear that I feel you showed societal benefit clearly in your comments earlier) And on that subject, I honestly feel that swinging does provide a positive impact by encouraging openess and honesty in a relationship.
    You quote a study on open marriages regarding jealousy:
    (”It actually talks about the pros and the cons of an open marriage. Now it’s been studied that couples that engage in this type of behavior have a HIGHER incident of jealousy.”)
    You might want to know that there is a difference between the term “open marriage” and “swinging”. The majority of swingers and the most common type of swinging would involve a male and female couple engaging in sexual acts with another male and female couple. These acts take place in the same room with all partners present. The acts can involve anything from same room sex (just watching the other couple and them watching you), just girl / girl play (self explanatory), soft swapping (there is oral swapping between the couples and no penetration (without male / male contact, [male bisexuality is generally frowned on in the lifestlye]), to full swapping where it’s full penetration swapping between the couples (still no male / male contact). In some relationships, they engage in separate room swapping, however the majority of swingers are present with their spouse throughout the experience. One of the main draws to swinging is watching your partner enjoy themselves with another. When you use the term “Open Marriage” you are seperating out the cross-section of people in the “group sex lifestyle” that allow and even encourage playing with others alone. From my personal experience knowing people who have done this, yes you are right, there is a higher level of jealousy and even divorce. The reason, too many emotions and feelings become involved when you’re with another intimately and alone for extended periods of time. However when the time you’re with another is while your spouse in there in the room, you’re watching her and she’s watching you, it’s something you experience together, your bond and trust is strengthened. I know this is hard to understand as it takes a certain type of person to be happy in this lifestyle. Please be clear, I’m not trying to tell anyone it’s for them, just how we feel in our experiences.

    KJE said “In regards to predictions of the fall of civilization, history has a way of showing man the do’s and don’ts of how to mess up a civilization. History on Roman culture stated that Rome first destroyed itself from inside before it was conquered from outside forces. And what were the common practices that eroded the moral fiber for that culture? All you need to do is look at what happened to the family unit.”

    This is a fun one. Why does swinging break down the family unit? I have three children, my wife stays at home and takes care of the house (her choice) and we’re the typical “Leave it to Beaver” family. However in our private lives, we like to engage in sexual acts with other loving couples. I’d like for you to explain how that breaks down the family unit. My wife and I are very open and honest with each other and are also affectionate to each other. The kids see this and it helps them establish what makes a healthy relationship. In your eyes it would be better to be a closed relationship that’s not honest and open and me be out cheating on occasion to get my kicks than our current scenario. I say this not because you’ve stated that, but in your comments not once have you mentioned any negative effect from the vast number of marriages that have spouses that have cheated or currently cheat. Also, openess means an acceptance of your partner and their desires and fantasies. With your current views regarding this topic, do you think your spouse would feel comfortable being open and honest if he/she was interested in something that might be considered somewhat taboo sexually? Would your spouse feel comfortable confiding in you a fantasy they had regarding multiple partners? (just think how you’re reacting to this board) Would your spouse feel comfortable telling you they had a physical attraction to someone at work or they saw at the mall? I don’t know the answer to these questions, but I’m guessing it’s No. I feel that is what’s unhealthy in a relationship. Your spouse, and most likely you will keep in secrets from each other. So, I’m still unsure how the family unit is affected by swinging, and would like your input on that. I’d say the breakdown of the family unit is more economic with both parents working and not being home with the kids. Passing that off on swinging is just an argument of conveninence. (”Post hoc, ergo propter hoc” Latin for “after this, therefore because of this”) this is a logical fallacy and seems to be the basis of many of your arguments. I’ll explain just incase you’re not following.
    Your arguments seem to be based on the following:

    Fact. There was swinging in Rome. Fact. Rome fell, therefore Swinging caused the fall of Rome. This is a fallacy.

    Fact. They were swingers. Fact. They got divorced, therefore swinging caused their divorce. This is also a fallacy.

    Fact. There are swingers in the US. Fact. The US family unit is breaking down, therefore Swinging caused the breakdown of the family unit. This is again a fallacy.

    Just because something occured prior to an outcome does not mean it caused the outcome.
    Love and Respect.com being a Chrisitan Faith based organization entirely discredits their objectivity on this subject. Would that website / organization publish a study that showed there are benefits to swinging or would they bury it? Think about it.

    KJE said “There are legal aspects to this aparent lifestyle that would be a problem since in a court of law, adultery is still used as a means of filing for divorce which is pretty expensive. So, if I was a betting man would this lifestyle have odds in favor of a solid marriage over time?”

    If you were a betting man getting even money, you wouldn’t bet on any marriage being solid, the odds are against you. Why seperate swinging couples from non swinging couples. Adultery occurs more frequently in non swinging couples since the term would imply deception. If I’m engaging in sexual activities with another woman and my wife is present and engaged with another man, I’d like to see that used in a court of law as adultery. However, on the other hand, use the scenario of adultery in a “monogamous” relationship, and I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of that judgement.

    I’ll leave you with one more question that I posted earlier. Why is your acceptable level of sexual involvement the right one? There are many that would say sex for pleasure and not for pro-creation is a Sin. Others (probably the same ones too) would say that sex in anything other than the missionary position is a Sin. Oral sex is a Sin. Sex outside the bedroom is a Sin. Sex with the lights on is Sin. See where I’m going here? Where’s the line of acceptability? You and I agree, we just have different lines of what’s Ok and what’s not.
    I look forward to your responses.

40. KJE on February 25th, 2007 2:47 pm

    RR,
    I know that I probably won’t lose sleep over your retraction because I could care less. As for sexual practices not being taught is school, I would have to disagree with you because in our state sexual practices are being expressed and discussed in a middle school not too far from where we live.

    As for my belief system and your belief system and this thread, it’s quite obvious that we don’t see eye to eye on the subject of swinging. No one has still been able to answer the common question of benefit for a society and before you start to banter on “facts”,please make sure to bring studies that will have more a valid representation of our society instead of a small portion that can be manipulated.

    Last but not least, those who don’t study the past are doomed to repeat it. Your Leave It To Beaver lifestyle is great for the now, but I am sure time will tell in how beneficial it will be for you and your family.

    Oh, I never brought my sexual ideas to the table so how does your question relate to me again?

41. Blogg Buzz on February 25th, 2007 5:25 pm

    My Best Friend’s a Swinger - Will She Burn in Hell?…

    I just found out that my dear close friends (two different couples) have been "swinging". Both of these couples are young engaged couples with very bright futures ahead of them. Is it wrong for me to "ditch" my close girlfriends because of this?…

42. RacerX on February 25th, 2007 11:11 pm

    KJE wrote: “My original question concerned benefit to the whole society? Now, did I miss something in your reply, RacerX?

    I hope that there will be a connection next time.

    RacerX: “Simple, because it’s a personal choice and isn’t for everyone. Why don’t we teach extreme skiing or sky diving or bungee jumping or race car driving in school? Same reason. They are personal life choices, not reading, writing, and arithmetic.”

    Again, you gave me “statistics” supposedly based on benefit and I asked why don’t we teach swinging in schools? Your answer completes that thought by…?”

    Of course I gave statistics. This is the only viable truth. Everything else is just opinion.

    Why don’t we teach swinging in schools? Why don’t we teach skydiving? Better yet, why don’t we teach religion? Why, be