I am a Chriastian and as such I have a belief system based on what I believe to be truths. These are summed up in the person of Jesus as God in the flesh and the belief that the Bible represents His Word to us. (For those of you who don’t accept this belief, I am simply putting my comments into perspective) I attend a conservative church weekly, teach an adult sunday school class, and (are you ready for this) believe the church has totally distorted and corrupted what the Bible teaches on sexuality. For some reason (many have suggested it was to keep control over the people) church fathers and leaders decided long ago, and against scriptural truth I believe, that God’s purpose and plan for sexuality is and always has been 1 man and 1 woman for life…no exceptions.

Right now many of you Christians reading this have just classified me as alligned with Satan himself and will no longer listen to anything I say. If you are in that category I can’t help but wonder why you are spending time in this web site. There are plenty of groups or boards that share your exact interpretation of Christianity. If you choose to respond I hope you recognize that I have a right to that opinion even if you disagree with it.

There is a rising movement in Christianity that is discovering that what we have always been taught is simply dishonest with scriptural teaching. That sexual freedom beyond the “traditional” Christian Church view IS blessed by God. Phariseeacle (sp?) legalists see this as an outright attack on God and His church. Of course they thought the same thing when men of science suggested the Earth was round and it actually revolved around the sun.

I am not going to make a long series of scriptural arguments to support my beliefs. I have studied extensivly and can defend them if needed but am not looking to do that here. What I am trying to do is point out that there is much room for healthy disagreement on all sides of this issue, both in the church and out. To simply state that the Bible teaches thus, and then close our minds to even the possibility that we are mistaken, is a bad as those who so adamantly and emotionally defended the view that the Earth was flat and the entire universe revolved around it. And to those of you who tell someone they are condemned to hell for daring to believe differently than you…I am ashamed to be associated with you.

The point in my way too long post is simply this…

Not all Christians believe the same any more than all swingers believe the same.

Just because one states “the Bible says it is wrong” does not in fact mean they have the knowledge of the Bible to make such a blanket statement. Clearly there is much disagreement within Christendom as to what God defines as sinful and none of us are qualified to speak in absolutes.

To those of you outside the Christian faith, please do not lump us all together or believe that we all think and act alike. Many of us, just like many of you, are actually quite enlightened individuals with the courage to think and study for ourselves and actually search for truth.

Take Care
Gary

P.S. Sorry if this ends up being a re-post. I tried posting this a week ago.

I am a Chriastian and as such I have a belief system based on what I believe to be truths. These are summed up in the person of Jesus as God in the flesh and the belief that the Bible represents His Word to us. (Please don’t attack that belief as I am putting my comments into perspective) I attend a conservative church weekly, teach an adult sunday school class, and (are you ready for this) believe the church has totally distorted and corrupted what the Bible teaches on sexuality. For some reason (many have suggested it was to keep control over the people) church fathers and leaders have decided, against scriptural truth, that God’s purpose and plan for sexuality is and always has been 1 man and 1 woman for life…no exceptions.

Right now many of you Christians reading this have just classified me as alligned with Satan himself and will no longer listen to anything I say. If you are in that category I would suggest you might do as has already been suggested and take your comments to other places such as groups or boards that share your exact belief or interpretation of Christianity.

There is a rising movement in Christianity that is discovering that what we have always been taught is simply dishonest with scriptural teaching. That sexual freedom beyond the “traditional” Christian Church view is blessed by God. Phariseeacle (sp?) legalists see this as an outright attack on God and His church. Of course they thought the same thing when men of science suggested the Earth was round and it actually revolved around the sun.

I am not going to make a long seruies of scriptural arguments to support my beliefs. I have studied extensivly and can defend them if needed but am not looking to do that here. What I am trying to do is point out that there is much room for healthy disagreement on all sides of this issue, both in the church and out. To simply state that the Bible teaches thus, and then close our minds to even the possibility that we are mistaken, is a bad as those who so adamantly and emotionally defended the view that the Earth was flat and the entire universe revolved around it. And to those of you who tell someone they are condemned to hell for daring to believe differently than you…I am ashamed to associate with you.

The point in my way too long post is simply this…

Not all Christians believe the same any more than all swingers believe the same.

Just because one states “the Bible says it is wrong” does not in fact mean they have the knowledge of the Bible, or even the intelligence to make such a blanket statement.

To those of you outside the Christian faith, please do not lump us all together or believe that we all think and act alike. Many of us, just like many of you, are actually quite enlightened individuals with the courage to think and study for ourselves and actually search for truth.

Take Care
Gary

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and I am certain that I won’t change any minds here, but there is a big difference between having a moral issue with a particular practice and being harsh, judgmental, and disingenuous with your fellow human beings over their perceived imperfections.

I have never met a swinger who secretly wishes that everyone were swingers. There are some people who prefer their sexuality to be tied in with their emotional feelings for their partners. Great! Nothing in this world wrong with that.

But there are some who approach sexuality differently. They do not see sexuality as an act that reinforces emotional intimacy. They see sex as more of a fun, recreational activity that can improve intimacy, but the feelings of love are not necessary to have a good time.

Some couple enjoy going to flea markets, playing golf, bowling, or hitting the slot machines at the casino. Others enjoy exploring all their sexual fantasies.

Live and let live. If swinging is not for you, then it is not for you. But please don’t pretend like you know what is right or wrong for me. You don’t know me, and you have no right to try and shove your beliefs down my throat. If you want to express religious indignation, do it on a church website.

I respect the opinions of those who think swinging would be wrong for their lives, but I have none for those who feel the compulsion to tell me what I should do with mine.

Personally (religious beliefs out), it is fine as long as all individuals and parties involved agreed to it.

If after the first ‘try’, the new swing-couple felt it is not for them or it hurt their relationship, then dont do it anymore. Know each other’s feeling.

And for your friends who are into it but you are not, keep an open-mind. God gave us a FREE WILL. It is the best gift we ever have that a third of the angels rebelled against God because they were envy of our Free Will.

It was their choice not yours. Yes, you may be disgusted with them, but put yourself in their shoes – they are not disgusted with you.

That’s the keyword – putting yourself in their shoes. Which I always do. I do not force myself and my beliefs on other people – yes I share the Word of God, but WE DO NOT force it. If you don’t want, that is your choice, your Free Will.

You see, God will NEVER force something to us, after all He gave us FREE WILL. In other words, we do not have any right whatsoever to force ourselves and our beliefs to others.

God also teaches us to love one another especially those who you do not like – the sinners if you will. (Pardon.. for the term). If you see your friends as such, then you are sinning against God for disobeying Him. You should love your friends more and take them out of that bondage. God put you there to be their friend because He will use you. You will be responsible for them once the Holy Judgment comes.

He will ask you: “Where are your friends?”
What will you answer Him? In Hell because they are swingers?
God will simply reply back: “But haven’t I told you to Love your neighbors as yourself?”

God teaches love not hate. Love your friends for being who they are, and if you believe what they are doing is wrong, then you have the responsibility and obligation to share to them the Truth. (Teaching/sharing is different from ‘forcing’.)

I’m a Pentecostal Christian, but I am exercising my own Free Will, and personally, I know it is against my belief and I fully well know that I am sinning, but I chose it. I’m having sex before marriage, I know it is wrong, but thats my choice, my free will.

God also said, “those without sin throw the first stone”. He also said, “everyone has sinned, no man is righteous”.

Don’t point fingers, don’t hate them. LOVE THEM!
You are responsible for their souls!

“Disgust” is just a “human” emotion, it is NOT from God. By disgusting your friends you yourself is commiting a sin, and by sinning, you will also go to hell.

Remember that. “No one is righteous, not one.” So don’t judge your friends and any other people like that.

“I’ve found these types, yes they are “types” because they are all un-original, weak, gross, sleazy “beings” to me and MANY others in the world, are either like the guy and woman I describe before, (jerky, arm-swinging, chauvenistic jerk, wanting to see his wife get eaten-out by another female for his own “satisfaction”) or some new-agey, pony-tailed idiot, or even some Hot-Topic cheesy ex-mall-rat Marilyn Manson type. Oh, I’m sorry I also forgot the middle-aged, mid-life crisis dorks with their bellies and celluite and then the all too pathetic elderly swingers. Eeeeww! Get a life and some “balls” people! And STRENGTH! You are all VILE!”

It is really to bad that this world is so full of self righteous indignation and judgment. Though there is really no need to debunk the above comments as they speak volumes for themselves.

On a more positive note, I would like to say that I am filled with an incredible amount of gratitude and happiness that my partner and I live in a free and wonderful country such as Canada. Here we are able to live our lives completely in accordance with our beliefs, be our true authentic selves and live in harmony with our neighbors. There is a lot of power in doing that. We also have the freedom to surround ourselves with loving supportive people and tune out and ignore those that are not!

Yes, we are in the lifestyle and we love it! I am married to the most amazing beautiful goddess who has an incredible love of life. When I see her sharing her love with glowing radiance I know she is living her true authentic self. It is a beautiful sight! There is nothing wrong with the lifestyle as long as those involved are doing so in accordance with their truest inner nature. And you know what, we stive to live EVERY area of our life according to our true self…..it is so much more fun!!!

As Fredrick mentions problems occur when one person is convinced against their will to do something. Whether it’s to save a relationship or one person give the other the ultimatum “you either do this or else”, new or further problems will arise.

We’ve found that with all the couples that have come into the lifestyle and eventually split-up, swinging wasn’t the reason why they split. These were the ones where they were using sex with others to “spice-up” a burned-out relationship or to “fix” a damaged relationship. All it does is give them more reasons to fight.

Those that are both in agreement with it, who both share the same fantasies that require more than just two people to fulfill, swinging has been a very positive experience that has brought them even closer together as a solid couple.

You are SO right. While we don’t think there’s anything wrong with the lifestyle, it’s VERY wrong to do something that you personally do not want to do, whether is about sex, your job, or anything else in life. It’s critical to stay true to yourself and your beliefs!

Posted by RONNIE: “People don’t always know themselves and their feelings as well as they think they do. You may think you are more sophisticated and less prone to human feelings such as jealousy than most people, but there are always triggers and there is no amount of trust on this planet that will save you when your partner suddenly realizes they have feelings for one of the people you’re swinging with.”

You’re right, they don’t. I don’t. I’m a work in progress, but I’m pretty happy with the progress I’ve made on myself. I certainly don’t think I’m more sophisticated than anyone else, nor less prone to human feelings. I’m just not hardwired like many others and how I handle those human feelings is different.

Also, I have faced the situation where my wife had feelings for a person we were swinging with, and you know what? It wasn’t anywhere near as terrible as you might think. Our relationship was never in jeopardy. We both represented two different aspects of male to her. And she was very happy and that made me very happy. Many may not understand this, but some will. Basically, we discovered that we can be polyamorous and it isn’t the end of the world, it’s just the start of a different aspect of our relationship.

Posted by RONNIE: “Why open your partner up to other options unnecessarily?”

Actually, this is exactly what I was saying previously. Jealousy is just that, protecting yourself by “protecting” your partner. Like you have any real say so about your partner being open to other options. If they are going to leave you for someone else they will find a way, regardless of swinging or not. In fact, those that are the most “protective” are the ones that usually get left first because their spouse is looking for a way out, a way to be themselves without being controlled and “protected”.

If I was making my wife so unhappy that she wanted to leave me, sex with others is the least of my worries.

For instance, this is my second marriage. I didn’t swing in my first one. My ex-wife was cheating on me with a coworker. We went to marriage counseling to try to work through it, but I was totally fixated on the sex they were having. That is what hurt me. Why? Because at the time I felt that sex WAS the relationship. I distinctly remember her yelling at me in the therapist’s office: “You’re more concerned that I had sex with him than the fact that I’m in love with him!”

Wow, that put it in perspective. It took a couple of years of hard introspection for it to make complete sense, but after it did I haven’t looked at a relationship the same way again. Whether or not my wife and I swing (which we didn’t for the first five years of our marriage) THAT will always be the truth and the foundation of the matter. It’s about love and respect, not about sex. We both had great sex with others before we met each other. We’ve had great sex with others since. But it’s love that keeps us together, not sex. It was not paying attention to all the things other than sex, not sex itself, that broke-up my first marriage. My ex and I could forgive sexual trespasses, but not the emotional scars left by years of not tending to the relationship well enough.

I’ll never make that mistake again.

Posted by RONNIE: “Sorry, but with the way I’ve seen so-called “committed” people leave relationships because someone new blows their socks off, there is NO amount of trust that will save you from that. To believe in that is to be naive, IMNSHO. It’s not worth the risk, IMO.”

In my opinion it’s naive to believe that my wife would leave me because someone “knocked her socks off”. This reduces our relationship and the reason we are married to just sex, and if someone comes along that she has great sex with she’ll leave me for him.

Well I can tell you I’ve seen her get her socks knocked-off and we’re still married and she’s still madly in love with me. I still knock her socks off better than the others. We’ve been together nine years. I’ve had nine years to figure-out all the right buttons to push on her. And I get to all the time, not just once in a while.

Besides, isn’t the point to have great sex? Why would I want her to have bad sex, or a bad experience when we swing? I hope she has a great time and she gets her socks knocked-off, and she hopes the same for me. It’s not better sex, it’s just different sex.

Posted by RONNIE: “I wonder if those who claim not to feel jealous are rationalizing their jealousy away for other psychological reasons.”

Actually I’ve asked myself that, and I can unequivocally say: no, I am not rationalizing away anything else.

Posted by RONNIE: “Why do swingers feel the need to include others in their sex lives? Is their primary partner not enough for them? Just saying “It’s fun, why not do it?” is not enough of an answer here.”

No, neither. It’s not that we are not enough for each other, in fact we are very happy together, both emotionally and sexually. Including others was just an extension of our already great relationship. It was the evolution of our relationship.

Swinging is not replacement sex. It’s additional sex. It’s fulfilling fantasies that require more than two people in the room to fulfill. Nothing less, nothing more.

When swinging is used as replacement sex it usually ends in disaster, much like your “so called ‘committed’” friends. I’d bet dollars to donuts they got into swinging because it was either A) replacement sex, or B) they thought “It’s fun, why not do it?” without really thinking it through and knowing what they were getting into. And much of that is knowing themselves, not just their spouse.

Posted by RONNIE: “I often hear from swingers that their swinging partner couples are no more than sex flings for them and that there is no real emotional entanglement with them. They say this to try to convince themselves that they are not somehow desecrating the emotional sanctity and “monogamy” of their primary relationship.”

This is where we really differ, the “emotional sanctity and ‘monogamy’ of their primary relationship.” I don’t see this the same way. It isn’t just sex flings. We don’t just have sex with anyone willy-nilly. If there isn’t “chemistry” than there isn’t sex. It doesn’t mean we are in love with them to have sex with them, it just means that we have more in common with them than interlocking parts.

We have developed some of our best outside the bedroom friendships with people in the swinger lifestyle, many whom we haven’t had sex with. Those that we have are very close to us. For us there is more than just sex. We develop very close friendships with some we have sex with and also arm’s length friendships with others. But, they are all friends in the truest sense of the term. Some swingers roll that way, others don’t.

Posted by RONNIE: “Unless the REAL reason you want to swing is that you are not as happy together sexually without those other people”

No, not at all. I think all swingers go through periods where they don’t swing at all. Times when they just want to be with each other only. Sometimes this lasts weeks, sometimes months, sometimes years. The point is, and the hardest for some to understand, is that swinging is simply an extension of our relationship, it isn’t THE relationship.

Posted by RONNIE: “All that said, I have known of several couples into polyamory and swinging and in all cases the primary partner was left for one of their swinging partners”

Polyamory and swinging are not the same thing. Polyamory is having more than one LOVING AND INTIMATE relationship at a time. Swinging is having sex. I have also seen some poly relationships break-up when the primary partner gets squeezed-out by the third. BUT, I’ve also seen just as many long-term poly relationships that are still going or where the third eventually left. Again, I think that if you are open to, and looking for something different than what you have, you’ll find it, swinging, polyamory, or not. If you are using swinging or polyamory as a way to find someone else, than you will. If your not looking for a replacement, if your relationship is watertight and you are overwhelmingly happy, than nobody can come in between you.

People don’t leave loving relationships because of sex. You can have great sex with many people. We’ve had great sex with many people. But, we only have everything else with each other. We are each other’s best friend. We’ve seen each other at our darkest moments and know each other’s deepest, darkest secrets and we still love each other. We are each other’s confidant, lover, and soul mates, and we always have each other’s back. That is why we are married to each other and not some other person we’ve had great sex with in our past.

So again, I’m not being arrogant, or conceited. I am not saying that I am superior because I’m not jealous. I don’t think I’m better than you because I’m “above all that”. It’s okay that you have trouble seeing where I’m coming from, but I know exactly where you are coming from because I was once a “non-swinger”. And I’m not saying everyone should be swingers and that swingers are more evolved than non-swingers. Everybody is different. My way of life doesn’t work for you anymore than your’s does for me. You are you and I am I. It’s the differences that make the world go ’round.

The more sexual partners you expose yourself to, the more STDs you open yourself up to. Sure, there is so-called “safe sex” but even that is not complete protection.

People don’t always know themselves and their feelings as well as they think they do. You may think you are more sophisticated and less prone to human feelings such as jealousy than most people, but there are always triggers and there is no amount of trust on this planet that will save you when your partner suddenly realizes they have feelings for one of the people you’re swinging with. Why open your partner up to other options unnecessarily? Sorry, but with the way I’ve seen so-called “committed” people leave relationships because someone new blows their socks off, there is NO amount of trust that will save you from that. To believe in that is to be naive, IMNSHO. It’s not worth the risk, IMO.

I don’t like the implied judgment of swingers that non-swingers don’t trust their partners enough and are not secure enough NOT to feel jealousy. That’s ridiculous. They expect non-swingers not to judge their lifestyle, but then they judge US and put us down in the process. I bristle at that, because it’s a double standard. Jealousy is not a throwback to some sort of lower form of evolution than non-jealousy. People who feel jealous are not necessarily insecure or unevolved. They may just be realistic! I wonder if those who claim not to feel jealous are rationalizing their jealousy away for other psychological reasons. So I can turn that around too.

My last point brings up this next one: Why do swingers feel the need to include others in their sex lives? Is their primary partner not enough for them? Just saying “It’s fun, why not do it?” is not enough of an answer here. There are many things a couple can do to spice up their sex life that do not include having sex with other people with all its attendant risks. So my question is why do it? If you have a primary relationship and are supposedly happy in it, then where’s the urgent need to go through all the risks and difficulties involved in including other people in it? And don’t say that including other people is without risk or difficulties because people are never the way we want them to be. They are human beings with human failings that you can’t control. Unless the REAL reason you want to swing is that you are not as happy together sexually without those other people…..And don’t say there are less risks if you know what you’re doing because people are unpredictable and you are never as good a judge of them as you think you are when you have an agenda.

I often hear from swingers that their swinging partner couples are no more than sex flings for them and that there is no real emotional entanglement with them. They say this to try to convince themselves that they are not somehow desecrating the emotional sanctity and “monogamy” of their primary relationship. But then again, why do you need to insert people as sex objects into your primary relationship to be satisfied? I do question the moral judgment of that, not in any religious sense, but in a common sense way. It’s just like the married man who tells his wife that his affair was “just for sex”. That is baloney and we all know that. it is always more than that. We are not somehow capable of compartmentalizing ourselves that much, despite what we think. You might say that if a relationship is jeopardized because of a fling or swinging then it wasn’t very strong to begin with, but that’s not always the case. I am sure that many strong relationships have been wrecked up by others despite the strength of the primary relationship. Human beings don’t always work according to logic, you know.

All that said, I have known of several couples into polyamory and swinging and in all cases the primary partner was left for one of their swinging partners. Yuck, setting myself up for that is just not for me. You may think it is worth the risk, but sexual satisfaction alone is never worth that kind of risk in my opinion. Going through all of that trouble and risk is just not worth it in the end. Human relationships are always a lot more complicated than you rationalize them to be in such situations. You may think you are above all of that, but you are only human like the rest of us and I think it is presumptuous and conceited to think otherwise.

Just my not so humble opinion!

Now, do swingers never feel jealousy? No. They do. But the difference is why they do and how they handle it. Swingers don’t usually have the raging jealously normally associated with the subject matter, but rather because we are not typically “the jealous type” we can have tinges of it.

Swingers don’t believe, like many do, that the more jealous you are the more you must love someone. In fact, we believe quite the opposite, that a little jealousy in a relationship can be healthy, but too much can be deadly to it. We believe that the stronger the love, the stronger the relationship, the less jealous you should be because the trust level is such that there is no need for the insecurities and fears that your spouse will leave you.

Jealousy in inevitably trying to protect yourself by passing it off as “protecting” your spouse from experiencing things that you consider threatening to you, whether it’s swinging, going to a strip club, going out with the guys (or the girls), going fishing, etc. You see this in the fact that many husbands/wives try to control their spouse and their every minute, to guarantee that their spouse will never have the opportunity to do or think for themselves, and thus possibly leave or hurt them.

Swingers just don’t feel jealousy in this manner. Every time I’ve felt any tinge of jealousy It’s always resolved itself by the fact that my wife and I have a very wonderful, open, trusting, and loving relationship together that well transcends sex itself. And that alone allows me to relish in the fact that she has had such a great experience and that I was a huge part of it and that she loves me even more for allowing and making it safe for her to be who she is. The idea that she’ll leave me for someone else, or that someone else may be preferred over me never crosses my mind anymore – and it did prior to us getting into swinging. What makes us a couple is very clearly defined now.

Again, this is one of those things that unless you’ve been there you’d never really be able to understand it.