I am a Chriastian and as such I have a belief system based on what I believe to be truths. These are summed up in the person of Jesus as God in the flesh and the belief that the Bible represents His Word to us. (For those of you who don’t accept this belief, I am simply putting my comments into perspective) I attend a conservative church weekly, teach an adult sunday school class, and (are you ready for this) believe the church has totally distorted and corrupted what the Bible teaches on sexuality. For some reason (many have suggested it was to keep control over the people) church fathers and leaders decided long ago, and against scriptural truth I believe, that God’s purpose and plan for sexuality is and always has been 1 man and 1 woman for life…no exceptions.

Right now many of you Christians reading this have just classified me as alligned with Satan himself and will no longer listen to anything I say. If you are in that category I can’t help but wonder why you are spending time in this web site. There are plenty of groups or boards that share your exact interpretation of Christianity. If you choose to respond I hope you recognize that I have a right to that opinion even if you disagree with it.

There is a rising movement in Christianity that is discovering that what we have always been taught is simply dishonest with scriptural teaching. That sexual freedom beyond the “traditional” Christian Church view IS blessed by God. Phariseeacle (sp?) legalists see this as an outright attack on God and His church. Of course they thought the same thing when men of science suggested the Earth was round and it actually revolved around the sun.

I am not going to make a long series of scriptural arguments to support my beliefs. I have studied extensivly and can defend them if needed but am not looking to do that here. What I am trying to do is point out that there is much room for healthy disagreement on all sides of this issue, both in the church and out. To simply state that the Bible teaches thus, and then close our minds to even the possibility that we are mistaken, is a bad as those who so adamantly and emotionally defended the view that the Earth was flat and the entire universe revolved around it. And to those of you who tell someone they are condemned to hell for daring to believe differently than you…I am ashamed to be associated with you.

The point in my way too long post is simply this…

Not all Christians believe the same any more than all swingers believe the same.

Just because one states “the Bible says it is wrong” does not in fact mean they have the knowledge of the Bible to make such a blanket statement. Clearly there is much disagreement within Christendom as to what God defines as sinful and none of us are qualified to speak in absolutes.

To those of you outside the Christian faith, please do not lump us all together or believe that we all think and act alike. Many of us, just like many of you, are actually quite enlightened individuals with the courage to think and study for ourselves and actually search for truth.

Take Care
Gary

P.S. Sorry if this ends up being a re-post. I tried posting this a week ago.

I am a Chriastian and as such I have a belief system based on what I believe to be truths. These are summed up in the person of Jesus as God in the flesh and the belief that the Bible represents His Word to us. (Please don’t attack that belief as I am putting my comments into perspective) I attend a conservative church weekly, teach an adult sunday school class, and (are you ready for this) believe the church has totally distorted and corrupted what the Bible teaches on sexuality. For some reason (many have suggested it was to keep control over the people) church fathers and leaders have decided, against scriptural truth, that God’s purpose and plan for sexuality is and always has been 1 man and 1 woman for life…no exceptions.

Right now many of you Christians reading this have just classified me as alligned with Satan himself and will no longer listen to anything I say. If you are in that category I would suggest you might do as has already been suggested and take your comments to other places such as groups or boards that share your exact belief or interpretation of Christianity.

There is a rising movement in Christianity that is discovering that what we have always been taught is simply dishonest with scriptural teaching. That sexual freedom beyond the “traditional” Christian Church view is blessed by God. Phariseeacle (sp?) legalists see this as an outright attack on God and His church. Of course they thought the same thing when men of science suggested the Earth was round and it actually revolved around the sun.

I am not going to make a long seruies of scriptural arguments to support my beliefs. I have studied extensivly and can defend them if needed but am not looking to do that here. What I am trying to do is point out that there is much room for healthy disagreement on all sides of this issue, both in the church and out. To simply state that the Bible teaches thus, and then close our minds to even the possibility that we are mistaken, is a bad as those who so adamantly and emotionally defended the view that the Earth was flat and the entire universe revolved around it. And to those of you who tell someone they are condemned to hell for daring to believe differently than you…I am ashamed to associate with you.

The point in my way too long post is simply this…

Not all Christians believe the same any more than all swingers believe the same.

Just because one states “the Bible says it is wrong” does not in fact mean they have the knowledge of the Bible, or even the intelligence to make such a blanket statement.

To those of you outside the Christian faith, please do not lump us all together or believe that we all think and act alike. Many of us, just like many of you, are actually quite enlightened individuals with the courage to think and study for ourselves and actually search for truth.

Take Care
Gary

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and I am certain that I won’t change any minds here, but there is a big difference between having a moral issue with a particular practice and being harsh, judgmental, and disingenuous with your fellow human beings over their perceived imperfections.

I have never met a swinger who secretly wishes that everyone were swingers. There are some people who prefer their sexuality to be tied in with their emotional feelings for their partners. Great! Nothing in this world wrong with that.

But there are some who approach sexuality differently. They do not see sexuality as an act that reinforces emotional intimacy. They see sex as more of a fun, recreational activity that can improve intimacy, but the feelings of love are not necessary to have a good time.

Some couple enjoy going to flea markets, playing golf, bowling, or hitting the slot machines at the casino. Others enjoy exploring all their sexual fantasies.

Live and let live. If swinging is not for you, then it is not for you. But please don’t pretend like you know what is right or wrong for me. You don’t know me, and you have no right to try and shove your beliefs down my throat. If you want to express religious indignation, do it on a church website.

I respect the opinions of those who think swinging would be wrong for their lives, but I have none for those who feel the compulsion to tell me what I should do with mine.

Personally (religious beliefs out), it is fine as long as all individuals and parties involved agreed to it.

If after the first ‘try’, the new swing-couple felt it is not for them or it hurt their relationship, then dont do it anymore. Know each other’s feeling.

And for your friends who are into it but you are not, keep an open-mind. God gave us a FREE WILL. It is the best gift we ever have that a third of the angels rebelled against God because they were envy of our Free Will.

It was their choice not yours. Yes, you may be disgusted with them, but put yourself in their shoes – they are not disgusted with you.

That’s the keyword – putting yourself in their shoes. Which I always do. I do not force myself and my beliefs on other people – yes I share the Word of God, but WE DO NOT force it. If you don’t want, that is your choice, your Free Will.

You see, God will NEVER force something to us, after all He gave us FREE WILL. In other words, we do not have any right whatsoever to force ourselves and our beliefs to others.

God also teaches us to love one another especially those who you do not like – the sinners if you will. (Pardon.. for the term). If you see your friends as such, then you are sinning against God for disobeying Him. You should love your friends more and take them out of that bondage. God put you there to be their friend because He will use you. You will be responsible for them once the Holy Judgment comes.

He will ask you: “Where are your friends?”
What will you answer Him? In Hell because they are swingers?
God will simply reply back: “But haven’t I told you to Love your neighbors as yourself?”

God teaches love not hate. Love your friends for being who they are, and if you believe what they are doing is wrong, then you have the responsibility and obligation to share to them the Truth. (Teaching/sharing is different from ‘forcing’.)

I’m a Pentecostal Christian, but I am exercising my own Free Will, and personally, I know it is against my belief and I fully well know that I am sinning, but I chose it. I’m having sex before marriage, I know it is wrong, but thats my choice, my free will.

God also said, “those without sin throw the first stone”. He also said, “everyone has sinned, no man is righteous”.

Don’t point fingers, don’t hate them. LOVE THEM!
You are responsible for their souls!

“Disgust” is just a “human” emotion, it is NOT from God. By disgusting your friends you yourself is commiting a sin, and by sinning, you will also go to hell.

Remember that. “No one is righteous, not one.” So don’t judge your friends and any other people like that.

“I’ve found these types, yes they are “types” because they are all un-original, weak, gross, sleazy “beings” to me and MANY others in the world, are either like the guy and woman I describe before, (jerky, arm-swinging, chauvenistic jerk, wanting to see his wife get eaten-out by another female for his own “satisfaction”) or some new-agey, pony-tailed idiot, or even some Hot-Topic cheesy ex-mall-rat Marilyn Manson type. Oh, I’m sorry I also forgot the middle-aged, mid-life crisis dorks with their bellies and celluite and then the all too pathetic elderly swingers. Eeeeww! Get a life and some “balls” people! And STRENGTH! You are all VILE!”

It is really to bad that this world is so full of self righteous indignation and judgment. Though there is really no need to debunk the above comments as they speak volumes for themselves.

On a more positive note, I would like to say that I am filled with an incredible amount of gratitude and happiness that my partner and I live in a free and wonderful country such as Canada. Here we are able to live our lives completely in accordance with our beliefs, be our true authentic selves and live in harmony with our neighbors. There is a lot of power in doing that. We also have the freedom to surround ourselves with loving supportive people and tune out and ignore those that are not!

Yes, we are in the lifestyle and we love it! I am married to the most amazing beautiful goddess who has an incredible love of life. When I see her sharing her love with glowing radiance I know she is living her true authentic self. It is a beautiful sight! There is nothing wrong with the lifestyle as long as those involved are doing so in accordance with their truest inner nature. And you know what, we stive to live EVERY area of our life according to our true self…..it is so much more fun!!!

As Fredrick mentions problems occur when one person is convinced against their will to do something. Whether it’s to save a relationship or one person give the other the ultimatum “you either do this or else”, new or further problems will arise.

We’ve found that with all the couples that have come into the lifestyle and eventually split-up, swinging wasn’t the reason why they split. These were the ones where they were using sex with others to “spice-up” a burned-out relationship or to “fix” a damaged relationship. All it does is give them more reasons to fight.

Those that are both in agreement with it, who both share the same fantasies that require more than just two people to fulfill, swinging has been a very positive experience that has brought them even closer together as a solid couple.

You are SO right. While we don’t think there’s anything wrong with the lifestyle, it’s VERY wrong to do something that you personally do not want to do, whether is about sex, your job, or anything else in life. It’s critical to stay true to yourself and your beliefs!

Posted by RONNIE: “People don’t always know themselves and their feelings as well as they think they do. You may think you are more sophisticated and less prone to human feelings such as jealousy than most people, but there are always triggers and there is no amount of trust on this planet that will save you when your partner suddenly realizes they have feelings for one of the people you’re swinging with.”

You’re right, they don’t. I don’t. I’m a work in progress, but I’m pretty happy with the progress I’ve made on myself. I certainly don’t think I’m more sophisticated than anyone else, nor less prone to human feelings. I’m just not hardwired like many others and how I handle those human feelings is different.

Also, I have faced the situation where my wife had feelings for a person we were swinging with, and you know what? It wasn’t anywhere near as terrible as you might think. Our relationship was never in jeopardy. We both represented two different aspects of male to her. And she was very happy and that made me very happy. Many may not understand this, but some will. Basically, we discovered that we can be polyamorous and it isn’t the end of the world, it’s just the start of a different aspect of our relationship.

Posted by RONNIE: “Why open your partner up to other options unnecessarily?”

Actually, this is exactly what I was saying previously. Jealousy is just that, protecting yourself by “protecting” your partner. Like you have any real say so about your partner being open to other options. If they are going to leave you for someone else they will find a way, regardless of swinging or not. In fact, those that are the most “protective” are the ones that usually get left first because their spouse is looking for a way out, a way to be themselves without being controlled and “protected”.

If I was making my wife so unhappy that she wanted to leave me, sex with others is the least of my worries.

For instance, this is my second marriage. I didn’t swing in my first one. My ex-wife was cheating on me with a coworker. We went to marriage counseling to try to work through it, but I was totally fixated on the sex they were having. That is what hurt me. Why? Because at the time I felt that sex WAS the relationship. I distinctly remember her yelling at me in the therapist’s office: “You’re more concerned that I had sex with him than the fact that I’m in love with him!”

Wow, that put it in perspective. It took a couple of years of hard introspection for it to make complete sense, but after it did I haven’t looked at a relationship the same way again. Whether or not my wife and I swing (which we didn’t for the first five years of our marriage) THAT will always be the truth and the foundation of the matter. It’s about love and respect, not about sex. We both had great sex with others before we met each other. We’ve had great sex with others since. But it’s love that keeps us together, not sex. It was not paying attention to all the things other than sex, not sex itself, that broke-up my first marriage. My ex and I could forgive sexual trespasses, but not the emotional scars left by years of not tending to the relationship well enough.

I’ll never make that mistake again.

Posted by RONNIE: “Sorry, but with the way I’ve seen so-called “committed” people leave relationships because someone new blows their socks off, there is NO amount of trust that will save you from that. To believe in that is to be naive, IMNSHO. It’s not worth the risk, IMO.”

In my opinion it’s naive to believe that my wife would leave me because someone “knocked her socks off”. This reduces our relationship and the reason we are married to just sex, and if someone comes along that she has great sex with she’ll leave me for him.

Well I can tell you I’ve seen her get her socks knocked-off and we’re still married and she’s still madly in love with me. I still knock her socks off better than the others. We’ve been together nine years. I’ve had nine years to figure-out all the right buttons to push on her. And I get to all the time, not just once in a while.

Besides, isn’t the point to have great sex? Why would I want her to have bad sex, or a bad experience when we swing? I hope she has a great time and she gets her socks knocked-off, and she hopes the same for me. It’s not better sex, it’s just different sex.

Posted by RONNIE: “I wonder if those who claim not to feel jealous are rationalizing their jealousy away for other psychological reasons.”

Actually I’ve asked myself that, and I can unequivocally say: no, I am not rationalizing away anything else.

Posted by RONNIE: “Why do swingers feel the need to include others in their sex lives? Is their primary partner not enough for them? Just saying “It’s fun, why not do it?” is not enough of an answer here.”

No, neither. It’s not that we are not enough for each other, in fact we are very happy together, both emotionally and sexually. Including others was just an extension of our already great relationship. It was the evolution of our relationship.

Swinging is not replacement sex. It’s additional sex. It’s fulfilling fantasies that require more than two people in the room to fulfill. Nothing less, nothing more.

When swinging is used as replacement sex it usually ends in disaster, much like your “so called ‘committed’” friends. I’d bet dollars to donuts they got into swinging because it was either A) replacement sex, or B) they thought “It’s fun, why not do it?” without really thinking it through and knowing what they were getting into. And much of that is knowing themselves, not just their spouse.

Posted by RONNIE: “I often hear from swingers that their swinging partner couples are no more than sex flings for them and that there is no real emotional entanglement with them. They say this to try to convince themselves that they are not somehow desecrating the emotional sanctity and “monogamy” of their primary relationship.”

This is where we really differ, the “emotional sanctity and ‘monogamy’ of their primary relationship.” I don’t see this the same way. It isn’t just sex flings. We don’t just have sex with anyone willy-nilly. If there isn’t “chemistry” than there isn’t sex. It doesn’t mean we are in love with them to have sex with them, it just means that we have more in common with them than interlocking parts.

We have developed some of our best outside the bedroom friendships with people in the swinger lifestyle, many whom we haven’t had sex with. Those that we have are very close to us. For us there is more than just sex. We develop very close friendships with some we have sex with and also arm’s length friendships with others. But, they are all friends in the truest sense of the term. Some swingers roll that way, others don’t.

Posted by RONNIE: “Unless the REAL reason you want to swing is that you are not as happy together sexually without those other people”

No, not at all. I think all swingers go through periods where they don’t swing at all. Times when they just want to be with each other only. Sometimes this lasts weeks, sometimes months, sometimes years. The point is, and the hardest for some to understand, is that swinging is simply an extension of our relationship, it isn’t THE relationship.

Posted by RONNIE: “All that said, I have known of several couples into polyamory and swinging and in all cases the primary partner was left for one of their swinging partners”

Polyamory and swinging are not the same thing. Polyamory is having more than one LOVING AND INTIMATE relationship at a time. Swinging is having sex. I have also seen some poly relationships break-up when the primary partner gets squeezed-out by the third. BUT, I’ve also seen just as many long-term poly relationships that are still going or where the third eventually left. Again, I think that if you are open to, and looking for something different than what you have, you’ll find it, swinging, polyamory, or not. If you are using swinging or polyamory as a way to find someone else, than you will. If your not looking for a replacement, if your relationship is watertight and you are overwhelmingly happy, than nobody can come in between you.

People don’t leave loving relationships because of sex. You can have great sex with many people. We’ve had great sex with many people. But, we only have everything else with each other. We are each other’s best friend. We’ve seen each other at our darkest moments and know each other’s deepest, darkest secrets and we still love each other. We are each other’s confidant, lover, and soul mates, and we always have each other’s back. That is why we are married to each other and not some other person we’ve had great sex with in our past.

So again, I’m not being arrogant, or conceited. I am not saying that I am superior because I’m not jealous. I don’t think I’m better than you because I’m “above all that”. It’s okay that you have trouble seeing where I’m coming from, but I know exactly where you are coming from because I was once a “non-swinger”. And I’m not saying everyone should be swingers and that swingers are more evolved than non-swingers. Everybody is different. My way of life doesn’t work for you anymore than your’s does for me. You are you and I am I. It’s the differences that make the world go ’round.

The more sexual partners you expose yourself to, the more STDs you open yourself up to. Sure, there is so-called “safe sex” but even that is not complete protection.

People don’t always know themselves and their feelings as well as they think they do. You may think you are more sophisticated and less prone to human feelings such as jealousy than most people, but there are always triggers and there is no amount of trust on this planet that will save you when your partner suddenly realizes they have feelings for one of the people you’re swinging with. Why open your partner up to other options unnecessarily? Sorry, but with the way I’ve seen so-called “committed” people leave relationships because someone new blows their socks off, there is NO amount of trust that will save you from that. To believe in that is to be naive, IMNSHO. It’s not worth the risk, IMO.

I don’t like the implied judgment of swingers that non-swingers don’t trust their partners enough and are not secure enough NOT to feel jealousy. That’s ridiculous. They expect non-swingers not to judge their lifestyle, but then they judge US and put us down in the process. I bristle at that, because it’s a double standard. Jealousy is not a throwback to some sort of lower form of evolution than non-jealousy. People who feel jealous are not necessarily insecure or unevolved. They may just be realistic! I wonder if those who claim not to feel jealous are rationalizing their jealousy away for other psychological reasons. So I can turn that around too.

My last point brings up this next one: Why do swingers feel the need to include others in their sex lives? Is their primary partner not enough for them? Just saying “It’s fun, why not do it?” is not enough of an answer here. There are many things a couple can do to spice up their sex life that do not include having sex with other people with all its attendant risks. So my question is why do it? If you have a primary relationship and are supposedly happy in it, then where’s the urgent need to go through all the risks and difficulties involved in including other people in it? And don’t say that including other people is without risk or difficulties because people are never the way we want them to be. They are human beings with human failings that you can’t control. Unless the REAL reason you want to swing is that you are not as happy together sexually without those other people…..And don’t say there are less risks if you know what you’re doing because people are unpredictable and you are never as good a judge of them as you think you are when you have an agenda.

I often hear from swingers that their swinging partner couples are no more than sex flings for them and that there is no real emotional entanglement with them. They say this to try to convince themselves that they are not somehow desecrating the emotional sanctity and “monogamy” of their primary relationship. But then again, why do you need to insert people as sex objects into your primary relationship to be satisfied? I do question the moral judgment of that, not in any religious sense, but in a common sense way. It’s just like the married man who tells his wife that his affair was “just for sex”. That is baloney and we all know that. it is always more than that. We are not somehow capable of compartmentalizing ourselves that much, despite what we think. You might say that if a relationship is jeopardized because of a fling or swinging then it wasn’t very strong to begin with, but that’s not always the case. I am sure that many strong relationships have been wrecked up by others despite the strength of the primary relationship. Human beings don’t always work according to logic, you know.

All that said, I have known of several couples into polyamory and swinging and in all cases the primary partner was left for one of their swinging partners. Yuck, setting myself up for that is just not for me. You may think it is worth the risk, but sexual satisfaction alone is never worth that kind of risk in my opinion. Going through all of that trouble and risk is just not worth it in the end. Human relationships are always a lot more complicated than you rationalize them to be in such situations. You may think you are above all of that, but you are only human like the rest of us and I think it is presumptuous and conceited to think otherwise.

Just my not so humble opinion!

Now, do swingers never feel jealousy? No. They do. But the difference is why they do and how they handle it. Swingers don’t usually have the raging jealously normally associated with the subject matter, but rather because we are not typically “the jealous type” we can have tinges of it.

Swingers don’t believe, like many do, that the more jealous you are the more you must love someone. In fact, we believe quite the opposite, that a little jealousy in a relationship can be healthy, but too much can be deadly to it. We believe that the stronger the love, the stronger the relationship, the less jealous you should be because the trust level is such that there is no need for the insecurities and fears that your spouse will leave you.

Jealousy in inevitably trying to protect yourself by passing it off as “protecting” your spouse from experiencing things that you consider threatening to you, whether it’s swinging, going to a strip club, going out with the guys (or the girls), going fishing, etc. You see this in the fact that many husbands/wives try to control their spouse and their every minute, to guarantee that their spouse will never have the opportunity to do or think for themselves, and thus possibly leave or hurt them.

Swingers just don’t feel jealousy in this manner. Every time I’ve felt any tinge of jealousy It’s always resolved itself by the fact that my wife and I have a very wonderful, open, trusting, and loving relationship together that well transcends sex itself. And that alone allows me to relish in the fact that she has had such a great experience and that I was a huge part of it and that she loves me even more for allowing and making it safe for her to be who she is. The idea that she’ll leave me for someone else, or that someone else may be preferred over me never crosses my mind anymore – and it did prior to us getting into swinging. What makes us a couple is very clearly defined now.

Again, this is one of those things that unless you’ve been there you’d never really be able to understand it.

Nevermind that it’s the best tasting flavor of ice cream, few people seem to realize that *real* vanilla is a very complex taste. There is nothing “simple” or “boring” about it.

What most people think of is an artificial version. (but even that is good lol)

I choose not to judge you for what I believe is hogwash (belife in a higher power) you are right to be able to follow your convictions in any manner you choose.

We (swingers) also have this right. We my wife and I have been in the lifestyle for over 15 years and married for 17, for us it has brought us closer, we are able to tell the other all our dreams with out the fear of rejection. How many of the so called happily married “vanilla” couples can say this?

To answer a few of the questions posed by others here:

What does it add to socity? Not much that any other non-essencial activity does, however we do spend more when we go out than the normal couple does, dinner/drinks, new clothing, hotel rooms and many other things that your “vanilla” couple out for the night would not spend. This is good for socity in that it helps the economy and provides jobs.

Why don’t we teach it in school? For the reasons stated before, wht you do in your bedroom is your business not ours or your kids or the local police.

How do you get past seeing your partner with another? For me its easy, I love seeing her enjoying herself, knowing that she is having one of lifes greatest gifts, one that very few can, physicl pleasure.

As to the original question, It seems to me that your friends didn’t tell you because they didn’t think you needed to know, you are not involved in this part of their life and it doesn’t concern you in any way.

The only way this can affect your relationship with your friends is if you let it, they ane not going to rape you or bring you to a sex club or party, they will not force you to do anything that you do not want to do. They have chosen to live their life in a different way than you have. So its up to you if you still want to be friends with them or if you are going to let a part of their lives drive you away.

K

I am single, and have never been married. If I gave the opposite impression it wasn’t my intent. I was simply trying to look at it from that perspective (I’m not much on the idea of marriage, so if I were to do so, it would have to be for one incredible woman. I know such a woman, and I was using her and the idea that it actually worked out for us, as my basis).

Good point about comfort levels and knowing each other’s bodies. And I guess some things you could keep off limits to others (if you feel that kissing is too “intimate”, or certain sexual acts, or whatever). That could keep it down to “just sex” and help stave off being drawn toward others.

But I was thinking that, even if you do it as rarely as 5 to 6 times a year, if it’s with the same couple, and especially if you are friends outside the bedroom, you could get very comfortable with them. And if you’re all sensitive and skilled, you could determine the combinations to those locks in a year or 2.

But, since you said the initial spark of “the first time” is what you’re after, I guess you prevent that stuff as well. (which is a pretty smart setup actually)

The whole “bigger” thing is a debate for the ages. Most women say it doesn’t matter, but it also seems most are fascinated by bigger as well. lol But too big can be painful.

My point wasn’t to imply anything about you, or anybody you meet. Rather to ask, what if you met someone who was more physically compatible with her, or with you. By that I guess I mean the whole Kama Sutra Horse/Elephant thing (and whatever the small animal was).

It happened to me. I met this girl who was attractive, and very good in bed, but for some reason I just didn’t have what it took for her. In the first place it was a little disconcerting as it was the first time that’s happened, but in the second place because I (like you I presume) love seeing my partner in the throes of ecstacy and if it’s just me getting off, it takes a LOT out of it. I’m not a small guy. She was a little larger than the other women I’ve met though, and the other stuff just didn’t seem to be in the right place. She was so different than the other women that I had been with that the only conclusion was that we simply were not physically compatible (which is unfortunate as I did enjoy the time together).

Logically, I would have to assume it can go the other way as well. Chemistry, innate tendencies, physical attributes, etc, they all add up and it’s always possible that there is a better match out there than whatever one a given person/couple might have.

As mentioned, you have a good approach that seems to more or less naturally prevent much of these from ever becoming an issue. It seems many swingers don’t use such an approach though, so I’m still curious about them (not that you can answer for them, I’m just sayin’).

One thing I should mention is that I am in the lifestyle. Just not from your perspective, so my questions were sincere. I am a single male in the lifestyle, have been to meet n greets and parties, have made friends along the way, and have had a great time. I don’t mind being the 3rd. I find a woman in the throes of ecstacy to be one of the most beautiful things there is. And being a science type of guy, I tend to look at things logically, and logically, MFM makes more sense than FMF since they can go far longer than we can. lol (am totally straight though)

I see both sides of it I guess. Part of me wants to experience the scene as a couple (couples seem to have all the fun). But at the same time, I’m certain I could walk away from it for the right girl. And part of my has reservations about meeting a girl on the outside, falling big-time for her, and bringing her into the lifestyle. I’m not sure I’d want to do that. I can’t really put it into words either. But that’s where my questions came from.

Neither my wife nor I were in the lifestyle prior to us meeting. After being together for a year or so, we started talking about fantasies. I’ll say it started when I admitted (as most guys will) that I had a fantasy of having a threesome with two girls. Her first reaction was just “of course”. But the more we talked about it, the more it became something we both wanted to try.
I understand what you’re saying about how you wouldn’t want another man to touch your wife. And I think you understand what you’re feeling is greed. I also think you understand that’s not the preferable feeling to have. I guess the best way to explain it is that I don’t look at my wife as a possesion. I love my wife like no other and have nothing but respect for her. For her to enjoy herself with another is something that we both enjoy. I have no worries that she’ll find another with a bigger package or better skills than me and leave. There are multiple reasons for that. The first is our relationship is based on a lot more than sex. Sex is only a part of our relationship and the quality of sex with one partner vs another wouldn’t break the bonds of our relationship. If I wasn’t able to perform sexually at all, I’d be sure she had someone to satisfy her needs. Wouldn’t you want that as well for your wife?
The second reason is that it’s virtually impossible for sex with someone on a rare occasion to beat the sex you can have with your spouse. (at least when you have a spouse you can be open and honest with) She’s able to completely let herself go and be selfish if she wants. She can do and say anything she wants with me. With another, she’ll worry about how she looks, or what she’s doing. Don’t get me wrong, we both enjoy sex with others, but you just can’t top the one on one sex we have together. The biggest thing we get from sex with others is that spark or electricity you get from kissing someone for the first time or that first sexual contact or that first penetration. No matter how hard I try, I can’t give her that spark anymore. She and I have been together thousands of times over the last 11 years, and that “mystery” is gone. Anyone who says they can keep up that electricity every time they have sex with their spouse (after 10+ years) is either lying or using power tools!.. lol..
Thirdly, it’s almost impossible for someone to know her body and bring her to the sexual heights I can. I’ve had over 10 years of practice. Let’s face it, every woman’s body is different and they all like different things. It would take more times than we’ll ever be with someone for them to really know how to please her the way I do. Now, that being said, that’s something I wish wasn’t true. I’d love it if we could find a guy that she was really attracted to that had a “big package” and could really please her like I can. I’d love for her to be able to have that excitement and be ravaged.
I know it’s hard to understand, but to see her in the “moment” when I’m not the one giving her the pleasure is amazing. When I’m the one having sex with her, I’m to busy trying to please her that I can’t just enjoy seeing her in the moment.
When it comes to preferances. I think one of the things we enjoy about swinging as much as anything else is the “Dating” aspect. It’s fun to get out and date other couples. That’s one thing that you miss after being married. That thrill of wondering if you’re going to “go home” with someone, dressing up and meeting new people, just like when you were single. I think there is a part of us that likes that more than the sex aspect. Remember as I said earlier, sex with others is rarely as good as the one on one sex we have together. We just know each others bodies too well.
Swinging keeps us both in shape and keeps us current with styles. We try to stay attractive so other couples will be interested. We’ve met so many wonderful people, some we have sex with, others we don’t. We’ve met more people in the lifestyle that we don’t play with than we do (by a lot) we’re very selective. However, that doesn’t mean we’re not friends with these people. We’ve been introduced to so many new things (not sexually) that we would have never known without the contacts we’ve made from swinging.
We’re probably not the norm in this lifestlye as we only play with others 5-6 times a year. We do have couples that we know and play with. We also are always on the lookout for other couples and singles. Again, it’s all fun! Hope that answered your questions, and feel free to ask anything else. I’d be happy to answer.

Good to know that regardless of anything else, you are exercising the right and sharing it with your family. I just hope that keeping them too locked up and too far from use doesn’t end up biting you.

Now…. back to swinging? lol

Guns are not evil. They are not dangerous. They are not influences. They are not something to fear.

PEOPLE are. Well, people who don’t think at least.

This is not off topic, it’s a response to the liberal view injected by RacerX with his biased gun comments.”

This may come as a surprise, but I was raised in such a home. And I am a avid hunter and gun owner myself. My wife was in the U.S. Army and can tear down an M-16 and reassemble it in mere moments. And, she shoots well, too. My kids know how to shoot, and my guns are kept locked-up until needed.

Hope that didn’t burst your bubble.

Were you in the lifestyle before your met your wife? Was she? Who brought it up to whom, and what was the initial reaction?

Thinking about the whole concept of swinging, I can see it being enjoyable for a single male. And in cases of having a second woman join you as a couple, that I can see as being enjoyable as well. Particularly if your mate is bi, then it’s enjoyable all the way around.

And, if you meet someone in the lifestyle, then I can see it being something that continues, but, I can’t help but think that for a guy, when you fall head over heels for a woman, you don’t ever want another man to touch her. Not because you want to deny her, and not even because you are worried that someone else might be more skilled or whatever, but just because it’s "yours", and incredibly treasured and you don’t want anyone else to have any of it. Greed more than jealousy I suppose. But it’s similar to cars (if you’re Car Crazy, as Barry Maguire would say). You don’t want anyone parking near your car, you often don’t want anyone riding in your car, and if they do, you close the door for them and even then only allow those you can trust to enter, and you would NEVER hand the keys of your baby over to anyone. You would deck anyone who dared to lean or sit on it as well. Clearly it’s not as if the car will choose to be driven by someone other than yourself, so as I said, it’s not jealousy.

And what about the "what ifs"? What if you meet a couple and the guy is far better than you? Perhaps more physically attractive, bigger in specific areas, and/or longer lasting, and/or more skilled digitally and orally?

On the surface, it might not seem that bad, but, in time, wouldn’t you notice that this guy takes your wife to levels of pleasure that you simply can not (whether due to physical appearance, or size (or both))? Wouldn’t that sadden or upset you a bit, that you knew you couldn’t get her off, or couldn’t get her off totally and completely like this other person could?

I’ve read some studies that show that there is a lot going on in an orgasm. That not only does it provide health benefits, but it actually DOES bring people closer together, and even cause people to, or at least nudge them toward, falling in love.

In a case of true poly, I guess that isn’t a problem. But otherwise….

And that goes the other way too, to a point. It’s not likely that one woman could get a man off any "better" than another, but what if you came across someone who was just stunning and got you far more turned on, and more quickly, than your wife? Wouldn’t that cause her to have some issues? And wouldln’t it cause you to look at her differently as well? (let’s say your a speed freak and love cars, but you think that bikes are cool. You ride one and it blows your mind and your hooked. Cars feel slow, oversized, clumsy, and claustrophobic by comparison now, or at least in very short time, because it simply can’t match the rush of a bike.) Especially when you toss in the whole orgasm creating/enhancing closeness thing.

You say this is an infrequent occurance for you, who usually brings it up? Do you find yourselves trying to hook up with the same people over and over again? (I mean far more often than not, I know that swingers do form friendships and prefer to play with their friends rather than strangers) And if so, do you find that it’s the same couple (or person) for both of you, or are your preferences different than hers?

I’m not judging, nor suggesting that you’re wrong. I’m simply curious.

Guns are not evil. They are not dangerous. They are not influences. They are not something to fear.

PEOPLE are. Well, people who don’t think at least.

This is not off topic, it’s a response to the liberal view injected by RacerX with his biased gun comments.

Claudine, I don’t know what to say. But I’ll try.

CLAUDINE WROTE: “I would not consider swinging because:

1) I am in love with my husband. I feel jealous of him if a woman is giving him too much attention in a party, and I am glad he feels unconfortable with that. Imagine to see him giving affection to another woman, I could not stand it. Jelaousy is a normal human feeling.”

At least you say that YOU are jealous. Not all people are. It sounds like you feel that love and jealousy are synonymous, that the more jealous you are the more you must love someone. I feel that in jealousy there is more self-love then love.

Jealousy, at it’s very core, is neurotic insecurity. It is the fear that your partner will prefer someone else over you. So to prevent your partner from encountering this “someone” you protect yourself by “protecting” your partner. Or in other words, by controlling them through the fear of upsetting you. So in reality, you’re telling him not to be him so that you are more comfortable with who you are.

I feel that in love you attain freedom. If you are smothering your partner to protect your ownself, then you are practicing more self love than true love.

The fact is that I’m madly in love with my wife, and insanely attracted to her, for the same reasons I was nine years ago when we first met. It’s the same attributes that keep me here today. And in my opinion, it would be very unfair of me to ask her to cut-off a part of herself, the part that was a huge attraction when we met, just to appease me. I love that she is a beautiful, wonderfully sexual woman. She’s supposed to turn that off because we got married? Not in my world. I don’t question my value to her. Out of 3 billion men in this world she chose to spend her time on this Earth with me. All men have the “equipment”, not anyone else in the world is me.

CLAUDINE WROTE: “2) I have children. They could find out and it would break my heart to see them suffer. I cannot fathom how they would feel knowing their mother was having sex with dozens or hundreds of men.”

Why would your children find out? Unless you make your sex life their business. Kids don’t want to even think that their parents have sex, much less how they do it. And it is none of their business when we have sex or how we do it.

And hundreds of men? Wow. Not. Swinging is not a 24/7 orgy like is portrayed in porn. Most swingers swing on the average of only once a month. That’s it. And many swing with the same people most of the time.

CLAUDINE WROTE: “3) The only man I am attracted to happens to be my husband. I hardly find ANY men on the streets or in my social group or at work that attract me at all. The thought of having to touch men I am not attracted to is just plain yucky. I love to touch my man though. Maybe if in 20 years I don’t want to touch him anymore I will think of others. Not now.”

I find this hard to believe, unless you’re trying to convince yourself that to justify your jealousy of your husband looking at other women. Kind of a “I’m not attracted to other men so you shouldn’t be attracted to other women” thing. Jealousy scans for evidence to prove itself valid.

I don’t see the day before you are married you can think someone else is attracted, but the next day you don’t, just because you’re now married. Maybe in fairytales where the prince and princess fall in love and live happily ever after, but not in real life.

CLAUDINE WROTE: “4) Seeing that swingers are more religious just shows me the hypocrasy of it all. I am not religious and have little respect for those who are.”

I’m not sure what to make of this comment. As you know, being “non-religious” yourself, morality and religion have very little to do with each other. “Religious” people do evil things every day.

CLAUDINE WROTE: “Swingers sound dumb to me. They also seem like losers. They are so ugly usually that they could not find anyone at a bar. They need to go to swining parties to find anyone who is willing to toch their ugly bodies. I have seen swingers and they are frumpy middle class folks who cannot get laid anymore.”

Wow. Going for the jugular aren’t you? Losers? No. So ugly we couldn’t find someone at a bar? Are you condoning cheating? Like it’s better to go to a bar, pretending your single, picking-up another person and cheating on your spouse with them?

You’ve seen swingers? Where? Have you been to swingers parties? I can’t believe so being how adamantly against it you seem to be.

But, the fact is, you have seen swingers; but you don’t know who they are because they don’t broadcast that they are. You could live next door to a swinger for 20 years and never know they are. Your best friend could be and you’d never know it, and because of your attitude, they’d never tell you (just like the person who asked this question to begin with).

Are some frumpy? Yes. Are some supermodel material? yes. Swingers run the gamut of body types and age, just like general society, because they are part of general society.

CLAUDINE WROTE: “5) And lastly, the amazing double standard that the women can have sex with each other and the men cannot. The american homophobic society. I bet most of these swining men have homossexual tendencies and just get a kick of seeing other naked men around them.”

No, I don’t have any homosexual tendencies. But also, I’m not homophobic and am not grossed out by another naked man. I’m secure enough in myself and my sexuality that it has not effect on me. I am not threatened by another man.

CLAUDINE WROTE: “So, it’s not for me and won’t be as long as I am in love and attracted to my husband.”

Now this is a good statement: “So, it’s not for me.” That’s your personal feelings without judging others for having theirs.

I personally think that it would be very strange for anyone to remain physically attracted to another – regardless of gender – for ones entire life. However, to equate a natural desire with making acting on that desire O.K. does not follow. I think that the core issue is how one defines the marriage commitment. If it is a commitment to forsake all others, then that commitment is violated when one partner has an outside sexual relationship. I think that people who are able to make and live by these commitments, especially those who do not fear of ‘burning in hell,’ are the best examples of love we have.

Swinging strikes me as the easy way out, of avoiding the hard part of love. We instinctively understand this with our kids, and most of us continue to love and support our kids, no matter what they do. This is true in spite of how hard it is sometimes to do this. I think that the ideal relationship with a spouse is similarly unquestioned. My love for my spouse means that that spouse is my only partner for the rest of my live, regardless of what desires or opportunities present themselves. Will this be hard at times? Certainly. However, it is my love for my spouse that makes me look at these times as opportunities to grow personally and in my relationship.

Does this make swinging right or wrong? No. To me, it seems like the easy way out, and an unwillingness to truely make the sacrifices that unconditional love of one person requires. However, that is just me. I couldn’t be a swinger. The sexusl behavior of those around me is not my concern. So long as they are not doing anything that harms me or those I care about, they can do as they please.

Historically speaking, monogamy is the newer attitude towards relationships. Most cultures around the world, even those we feel are more religiously conservative, have a long history of NON-monogamous relationships being the norm.

Even now there are cultures that consider monogamy to be the “alternative lifestyle”.

My two cents is this.

My parents are good friends with an American couple who have been married for almost 50 years and who have been actively swinging since the beginning of their marriage. Even at 70 something years of age they still swing.

I’ve been friends with two other couples; one couple who have been married for almost 25 years with children who have been swinging for almost half their marriage; and another couple married for 10 years who not only swing but host sex parties at their home.

All these couples that I personally know are very happy. These are not outcasts of society either. Without naming names, these people are heads of major corporations, former politicians, and active community and religious leaders.

The one reason I think it works for them is that it is something they all want not just one person in the relationship. They all openly discuss with their partners, what they want, don’t want, etc. And they are also open about what they do with friends and family and don’t treat it like a “dirty secret.”

When you hear of the “horror” stories of these “alternative lifestyles” you always here about the woman who was forced into the “lifestyle” by her abusive husband or the parents who attend sex parties while their children are left at home unattended. While these stories make for great news stories, they do not represent a clear and present danger in the “breakdown” of morality in society.

There are tens of thousands of couples in the US alone that are active swingers who lead normal healthy lives and who are happily married or in happy healthy relationships. Not to mention the rest of the world.

Disclosure: While I support a person’s right to do what they want in the privacy of their own homes, I myself am not a swinger.

Susan, with all of your biblical scriptures, you and I will never see eye to eye, as you can argue facts against faith. One will always fall back on faith and the “selective” bible passages. Read the rest of the bible, we’re all commiting sins every day that we don’t even know about and are accepted by the “church” because they are outdated. Read above comments for specifics. You mention sodomy, do you realize that most definitions include oral sex as being sodomy, what percentage of the population is going to hell now??

There are so many great points of view. I really appreciate that most of you kept your comments positive. This is a heated topic and it would be easy to resort to mud slinging…

Have an awesome day!

If a person doesn’t believe the Scriptures, they can ignore the above comments as foolishness . . . but how is it that God’s word has survived over 6000 years depite burning, persecution, anger, denial, etc. Answer: the Truth will ultimately always survive, no matter how it is attacked.

So, no one is interested in judging here. Simply put: sexual sins (fornication, adultery, homosexuality, sodomy) are against God’s will, and they WILL be punished eternally if the perpetrator does not stop sinning against his/her own body.

1) I am in love with my husband. I feel jealous of him if a woman is giving him too much attention in a party, and I am glad he feels unconfortable with that. Imagine to see him giving affection to another woman, I could not stand it. Jelaousy is a normal human feeling.

Now, if I were NOT in love with him anymore, and not attracted to him anymore, maybe I wouldn’t care less. If I was one of those long time married women who is indifferent to her husband, maybe I would do it to spice my life up. I could also engage in group sex if I were single and with no one special in my life-no chance of jealousy.

2) I have children. They could find out and it would break my heart to see them suffer. I cannot fathom how they would feel knowing their mother was having sex with dozens or hundreds of men.

3) The only man I am attracted to happens to be my husband. I hardly find ANY men on the streets or in my social group or at work that attract me at all. The thought of having to touch men I am not attracted to is just plain yucky. I love to touch my man though. Maybe if in 20 years I don’t want to touch him anymore I will think of others. Not now.

4) Seeing that swingers are more religious just shows me the hypocrasy of it all. I am not religious and have little respect for those who are. Swingers sound dumb to me. They also seem like losers. They are so ugly usually that they could not find anyone at a bar. They need to go to swining parties to find anyone who is willing to toch their ugly bodies. I have seen swingers and they are frumpy middle class folks who cannot get laid anymore.

5) And lastly, the amazing double standard that the women can have sex with each other and the men cannot. The american homophobic society. I bet most of these swining men have homossexual tendencies and just get a kick of seeing other naked men around them.

So, it’s not for me and won’t be as long as I am in love and attracted to my husband.

Why pick and choose from the bible? (multiple if not most rules in the bible are foresaken by all even those who claim righteousness)

Why is your level of sexual acceptance the right one? (multiple acts you perform would be a sin to others)

You mentioned many times the breakdown of the family unit and tie that to swinging. How does swinging break down the family unit?

And finally, how do you explain how it’s better to hide your feelings and desires from your spouse than to be honest about them? (your spouse could obviously not come to you with a fantasy or attraction that involved another, thereby forcing them to hide their feelings and possibly go elsewhere)

(Please read above posts if you want more information regarding these questions. They’re fully explained in previous posts)

Again, I would hope considering Racer and I did all we could to try to answer your questions, that you would have enough respect to answer the questions posed to you. Thank you.

As I have looked at this thread, I have noticed that you and RR have been pretty vocal in your ascertions of the swinging model as a lifestyle that doesn’t affect anyone between consenting adults. It’s interesting that this thread started with a person who had a problem with her friends being involved in swinging.

Your insights and thoughts on the affects on the society as a whole as being an island unto yourself is a definite Western philosophy. It sounds great but in reality fails the basic premise that your actions and my actions do not have a ripple affect. Whether now or later, something will come of our actions for the good or the bad. But, you see, I don’t have to prove this to you. It will come.

Instead of worrying about the 15 books that were not put in the Bible, I think it would better to worry about the 66 that were put in. My hope is that you will look for more beneficial ways of sprucing up your marriage instead of swinging. You will never be able to say that you were not warned or told.

http://www.freecdtracts.com

I hope that there will be a connection next time.

RacerX: “Simple, because it’s a personal choice and isn’t for everyone. Why don’t we teach extreme skiing or sky diving or bungee jumping or race car driving in school? Same reason. They are personal life choices, not reading, writing, and arithmetic.”

Again, you gave me “statistics” supposedly based on benefit and I asked why don’t we teach swinging in schools? Your answer completes that thought by…?”

Of course I gave statistics. This is the only viable truth. Everything else is just opinion.

Why don’t we teach swinging in schools? Why don’t we teach skydiving? Better yet, why don’t we teach religion? Why, because those are personal choices and have nothing to do with everybody in society.

What’s the benefit to society? Well, society as a whole… nothing. But you can’t prove it that is harms it either. You can’t honestly tell me how my wife and I inviting another single or couple into our sex life has changed or effected your life.

To take this argument further. What benefit does skydiving have on society? None. Nada. Nilch. If no one skydived tomorrow it would not change society one bit. And if they do it won’t change it either.

How about hunting? In modern, civilized nations there is no longer a need for hunting since fresh meat is just a few minutes away in the grocery store. In fact, the argument could be made that hunting in modern countries is harmful to society since many, if not most firearms accidents involving children in the home happen with a hunting rifle. This is a straight-forward example of honest-to-god harm done to humans by having a hunting rifle to hunt with.

You can not make the same argument with consensual sex between adults.

KJE wrote: “In regards to predictions of the fall of civilization, history has a way of showing man the do’s and don’ts of how to mess up a civilization. History on Roman culture stated that Rome first destroyed itself from inside before it was conquered from outside forces. And what were the common practices that eroded the moral fiber for that culture? All you need to do is look at what happened to the family unit.”

The fall of Rome had very little to do with who was having sex with who other than in the royal households. The fall of Rome was directly related to power struggles within the hierarchy, the emperor and the senate.

KJE wrote: “I think this an assumption. Actually, I was referring to studies on the subject of marriage. Are you sure that the Bible is just about several people’s opinions? Doesn’t sound to me that you’ve actually tested that assumption.”

Yes I have. Remember, 15 “books” were not included in the New Testament. The ones that were, were hand-chosen to represent the opinions of the church leaders at the time.

KJE wrote: “So let me get this straight, the “experts” don’t talk with people who have successful marriages, right?”

Right. When was the last time you went and spent $100 a hour because you and your significant other were perfectly happy. When was the last time a psychiatrist came knocking on your door to talk to you about your happy marriage?

KJE wrote: No, you are right, I didn’t Google the study because I was still looking for the answer in my original question of benefit to society as a whole.”

Again, there is no benefit to society as a whole, but there is also no verifiable proof that it harms society, either. It’s simply opinion and nothing else.

Acceptance without proof is the fundamental characteristic of Western religion, rejection without proof is the fundamental characteristic of Western science.

KJE wrote: “Actually, not all surveys are random. You can have a survey in which you have a specific individuals specifically targeted within an organized meeting that doesn’t fit the criteria for randomized surveys. It’s one of many research tools in the area of research.”

True, but that research must be thrown-out as unacceptable findings because the researcher only used the data he needed to support his opinion and disregarded the rest that didn’t. A random sample is the only way to get an accurate and objective picture of the subject.

KJE wrote: “We keep missing each other on this society and benefit thing.”

Again, there isn’t any… but then again there isn’t to so many things that humans do. Is there any benefit to humanity from sport hunting? Climbing Everest? Skydiving? Or are these simply exercises of the human ego?

“On another note, it’s assumed that you have to be white, middle-income and young to be the average swinger?”

No, it is not. The researchers simply stated the cross-section of the respondents age, ethnicity, and education.

KJE wrote: “Now let’s take a look at this. Remember the link that I gave you earlier, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_marriage. It actually talks about the pros and the cons of an open marriage. Now it’s been studied that couples that engage in this type of behavior have a HIGHER incident of jealousy.”

No, this is complete opinion that can not be backed-up with facts and figures. In fact, not one of the links in the references section of the the Wiki articles on open relationships and swinging show this at all.

The reason couples CAN swing is because of the lack of jealousy in their relationship. They CAN swing because they are secure in themselves (i.e. they have high self-esteem), they are secure in their sexuality, and they are secure in their partner and relationship. Jealousy is neurotic insecurity, plain and simple. Jealousy is the fear that another will be preferred over you. If this is was the case with swingers they couldn’t, and wouldn’t swing.

Human nature is to run from something that causes pain. Those that are jealous don’t do allot of stuff. In fact those that are the jealous sort get angry if their partner as much as looks at another one of the opposite (or same) sex.

KJE wrote: “Well, I don’t know about you, but jealousy left unresolved turns into anger. Anger left unresolved turns into unhealthy actions. Unhealthy actions, one would hope, lead to separation.”

You’re correct. Why do you think there is so much domestic violence against women? These aren’t people consensually having sex with others. These are men that are insecure and thus paranoid that their wife may be having sex with someone els, and therefore they feel the need to “keep her under control.” They are so insecure that they have to bully those around them to control them and make them feel comfortable for the moment.

The jealous are troublesome to others a torment to themselves.

KJE wrote: “There are legal aspects to this aparent lifestyle that would be a problem since in a court of law, adultery is still used as a means of filing for divorce which is pretty expensive. So, if I was a betting man would this lifestyle have odds in favor of a solid marriage over time? Did you Google the percent of marriages that end in divorce?”

Yes, 50% of first marriages end in divorce and 60% of second marriages end in divorce. Four different studies have estimated the number of couples that have actually engaged in swinging to be between 1% and 4%. Hardly the cause of a 50% divorce rate. In fact, cheating is one of the number one causes for divorce. The basis of cheating is deception of one member of the relationship. Swinging is not cheating. There is no deception going on. Those that do are the ones that end-up getting divorced. And again, those are the ones whose marriages were already going down the drain and they thought that having sex with others would magically fix it. This is not the profile of 98% of swingers that do it as a natural extension of an already great marriage and abundant sex life together. Swinging is a couple who is secure, open, and honest with each other and is open to each others ideas and fantasies because they are not threatened by them. It is these couples that grow together, not apart. This should be the case in every aspect of a relationship, not just sex… but rarely is. Hence the 50% divorce rate.

As far as 60% of second marriages failing? That is proven to be because people will leave their spouse for someone else. When the fantasy and newness wears-off they discover that it’s the same crap, just a different face they are waking-up next to. Why? Because they, themselves are the problem, not the person they are married to.

And yes, again, study after study has found the exact opposite of popular public perception of swinging, open relationships, and polyamory. Those that get into such relationships for the right reasons (to grow in the relationship together) rather than for the wrong reasons (to “fix” a failing relationship) stay together. Again, the estimated divorce rate amongst those that have tried swinging is about 15%. Far below the average for the general population.

KJE wrote: “RacerX: “Love and Respect.com is a Christian faith-based website and organization that charges $35.00 per person to go to one of there weekend “conferences” to learn how to love your spouse. A for-profit, religiously-biased source is hardly a good source for any honest and objective information.

Oh no, do they charge a whopping $35 per person to go and learn about how to love and respect your mate? Stop the presses! That is totally dishonest. I mean in a capitilistic society, you charge money for materials, location, venue, markteting, etc.? Hold the phone! I know, that must be completely dishonest for them to do that. I am sure that this will prove that the information is totally terrible.”

No, the information isn’t totally terrible, but those that do these “conferences” are simply telling people what they want to hear or these people wouldn’t be forking-over their money to hear it. Nobody WANTS to pay someone to tell them they are wrong. They are seeking-out and paying those that already support their opinions.

KJE wrote: “And since you have read ALL the studies, good and bad as well as speak from both experience and education on the subject, then the answer that I have been waiting for is soon to appear on your next repy, right?”

Okay, again. There is no benefit to society overall from swinging, only to the individuals that practice swinging, open relationships, and polyamory. And there is no supportable evidence of it harming society either. Only opinion. And I’ve found that those with the most opinions usually have the fewest facts.

I just found out that my dear close friends (two different couples) have been "swinging". Both of these couples are young engaged couples with very bright futures ahead of them. Is it wrong for me to "ditch" my close girlfriends because of this?…

As for my belief system and your belief system and this thread, it’s quite obvious that we don’t see eye to eye on the subject of swinging. No one has still been able to answer the common question of benefit for a society and before you start to banter on “facts”,please make sure to bring studies that will have more a valid representation of our society instead of a small portion that can be manipulated.

Last but not least, those who don’t study the past are doomed to repeat it. Your Leave It To Beaver lifestyle is great for the now, but I am sure time will tell in how beneficial it will be for you and your family.

Oh, I never brought my sexual ideas to the table so how does your question relate to me again?

KJE Said “Why not talk about sexual practices in school? I mean, kids will be adults someday, so why not talk about the “benefits” now? What’s the harm? I mean this lifestyle is “healthy” for the whole of society, right? Why keep it a secret?”

Sexual practices are not taught in school. If you want to take that argument, why aren’t they teaching kids what is the most pleasurable position for sex, or how to perform oral sex on your partner or any other private sexual act that I’ll spare the other readers from having to read. These are sexual practices that happen behind closed doors and for some reason you feel it’s necessary to use the “would you teach it to your kids?” argument. Would you teach your kids everything you and your spouse do in the bedroom or just let them learn for themselves as they become adults. However to help you understand, I’d be more than happy if my kids (once they become adults in a secure relationship) decided to explore with others in this manner, especially if it meant having as open and honest relationship as I have with my wife. It’s nothing I’m going to discuss or disclose to my children just as I’m assuming you’re not going to discuss whatever sexual act you last performed with your spouse, with your children. Another reason it shouldn’t be taught is that it takes a certain type of person and and certain type of relationship to engage in this type of lifestlye. Which is another reason we don’t try to “convert” couples. If it’s not something you and your spouse already want to do, I don’t want to “talk you into it.”

Regarding your comments about the benefits to society as a whole, I think RacerX answered them very clearly in his posts however, as he later stated, you seem to have a problem accepting anything that’s in contrast to how your mind works or your belief system. With all the facts that were posted from the study, you refused to allow even the slightest credit to racer and his research. Now, in my response, what is the benefit of most things we do to society as a whole? Bunjee Jumping was mentioned earlier, what’s the societal benefit? Without one, should it be made illegal? Does everything you choose to do have to have a measurable societal benefit or can you do something just for fun? What is the societal benefit to oral sex? Should it be illegal? (I know some small towns already have old outdated ordinances that make oral sex illegal, but I’m trying to have a logical argument, so please don’t throw that at me) I could go on forever naming things we all do in our everyday lives that don’t show measurable improvement or any improvement on society for that matter, yet they’re widely accepted. (Racer, I want to be clear that I feel you showed societal benefit clearly in your comments earlier) And on that subject, I honestly feel that swinging does provide a positive impact by encouraging openess and honesty in a relationship.
You quote a study on open marriages regarding jealousy:
(“It actually talks about the pros and the cons of an open marriage. Now it’s been studied that couples that engage in this type of behavior have a HIGHER incident of jealousy.”)
You might want to know that there is a difference between the term “open marriage” and “swinging”. The majority of swingers and the most common type of swinging would involve a male and female couple engaging in sexual acts with another male and female couple. These acts take place in the same room with all partners present. The acts can involve anything from same room sex (just watching the other couple and them watching you), just girl / girl play (self explanatory), soft swapping (there is oral swapping between the couples and no penetration (without male / male contact, [male bisexuality is generally frowned on in the lifestlye]), to full swapping where it’s full penetration swapping between the couples (still no male / male contact). In some relationships, they engage in separate room swapping, however the majority of swingers are present with their spouse throughout the experience. One of the main draws to swinging is watching your partner enjoy themselves with another. When you use the term “Open Marriage” you are seperating out the cross-section of people in the “group sex lifestyle” that allow and even encourage playing with others alone. From my personal experience knowing people who have done this, yes you are right, there is a higher level of jealousy and even divorce. The reason, too many emotions and feelings become involved when you’re with another intimately and alone for extended periods of time. However when the time you’re with another is while your spouse in there in the room, you’re watching her and she’s watching you, it’s something you experience together, your bond and trust is strengthened. I know this is hard to understand as it takes a certain type of person to be happy in this lifestyle. Please be clear, I’m not trying to tell anyone it’s for them, just how we feel in our experiences.

KJE said “In regards to predictions of the fall of civilization, history has a way of showing man the do’s and don’ts of how to mess up a civilization. History on Roman culture stated that Rome first destroyed itself from inside before it was conquered from outside forces. And what were the common practices that eroded the moral fiber for that culture? All you need to do is look at what happened to the family unit.”

This is a fun one. Why does swinging break down the family unit? I have three children, my wife stays at home and takes care of the house (her choice) and we’re the typical “Leave it to Beaver” family. However in our private lives, we like to engage in sexual acts with other loving couples. I’d like for you to explain how that breaks down the family unit. My wife and I are very open and honest with each other and are also affectionate to each other. The kids see this and it helps them establish what makes a healthy relationship. In your eyes it would be better to be a closed relationship that’s not honest and open and me be out cheating on occasion to get my kicks than our current scenario. I say this not because you’ve stated that, but in your comments not once have you mentioned any negative effect from the vast number of marriages that have spouses that have cheated or currently cheat. Also, openess means an acceptance of your partner and their desires and fantasies. With your current views regarding this topic, do you think your spouse would feel comfortable being open and honest if he/she was interested in something that might be considered somewhat taboo sexually? Would your spouse feel comfortable confiding in you a fantasy they had regarding multiple partners? (just think how you’re reacting to this board) Would your spouse feel comfortable telling you they had a physical attraction to someone at work or they saw at the mall? I don’t know the answer to these questions, but I’m guessing it’s No. I feel that is what’s unhealthy in a relationship. Your spouse, and most likely you will keep in secrets from each other. So, I’m still unsure how the family unit is affected by swinging, and would like your input on that. I’d say the breakdown of the family unit is more economic with both parents working and not being home with the kids. Passing that off on swinging is just an argument of conveninence. (“Post hoc, ergo propter hoc” Latin for “after this, therefore because of this”) this is a logical fallacy and seems to be the basis of many of your arguments. I’ll explain just incase you’re not following.
Your arguments seem to be based on the following:

Fact. There was swinging in Rome. Fact. Rome fell, therefore Swinging caused the fall of Rome. This is a fallacy.

Fact. They were swingers. Fact. They got divorced, therefore swinging caused their divorce. This is also a fallacy.

Fact. There are swingers in the US. Fact. The US family unit is breaking down, therefore Swinging caused the breakdown of the family unit. This is again a fallacy.

Just because something occured prior to an outcome does not mean it caused the outcome.
Love and Respect.com being a Chrisitan Faith based organization entirely discredits their objectivity on this subject. Would that website / organization publish a study that showed there are benefits to swinging or would they bury it? Think about it.

KJE said “There are legal aspects to this aparent lifestyle that would be a problem since in a court of law, adultery is still used as a means of filing for divorce which is pretty expensive. So, if I was a betting man would this lifestyle have odds in favor of a solid marriage over time?”

If you were a betting man getting even money, you wouldn’t bet on any marriage being solid, the odds are against you. Why seperate swinging couples from non swinging couples. Adultery occurs more frequently in non swinging couples since the term would imply deception. If I’m engaging in sexual activities with another woman and my wife is present and engaged with another man, I’d like to see that used in a court of law as adultery. However, on the other hand, use the scenario of adultery in a “monogamous” relationship, and I wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of that judgement.

I’ll leave you with one more question that I posted earlier. Why is your acceptable level of sexual involvement the right one? There are many that would say sex for pleasure and not for pro-creation is a Sin. Others (probably the same ones too) would say that sex in anything other than the missionary position is a Sin. Oral sex is a Sin. Sex outside the bedroom is a Sin. Sex with the lights on is Sin. See where I’m going here? Where’s the line of acceptability? You and I agree, we just have different lines of what’s Ok and what’s not.
I look forward to your responses.

I hope that there will be a connection next time.

RacerX: “Simple, because it’s a personal choice and isn’t for everyone. Why don’t we teach extreme skiing or sky diving or bungee jumping or race car driving in school? Same reason. They are personal life choices, not reading, writing, and arithmetic.”

Again, you gave me “statistics” supposedly based on benefit and I asked why don’t we teach swinging in schools? Your answer completes that thought by…?

RacerX: “You can no more predict what effect 0.01% of the world’s population has on the decline of civilization then any other factor other then outright murderous chaos. It’s much like the gay marriage debate. Fundies go around screaming “what about the children?!” and claiming it will destroy the traditional family as we know it and that the world will come to an end if we allow it. Yet, not one opponent yet of same-sex marriage has been able to support this theory in any way shape or form. Not one, has been able to show the sequence of events once that first domino has been pushed.

Once again, it’s the fear of what others are doing rather than what you are doing.”

Help me make the link to swinging and benefit to the society again, that’s all I’m asking? In regards to predictions of the fall of civilization, history has a way of showing man the do’s and don’ts of how to mess up a civilization. History on Roman culture stated that Rome first destroyed itself from inside before it was conquered from outside forces. And what were the common practices that eroded the moral fiber for that culture? All you need to do is look at what happened to the family unit.

RacerX: “And you are referring to Biblical scriptures, which are several peoples opinions, that were written 1,700 years ago. Not hardly a “study” in any sense of the word.”

I think this an assumption. Actually, I was referring to studies on the subject of marriage. Are you sure that the Bible is just about several people’s opinions? Doesn’t sound to me that you’ve actually tested that assumption.

RacerX: “Keep in mind that many of the opinions of so-called “experts” in marriage counseling and psychology never deal with happily married couples. They deal with marriages in trouble and base their opinions and write their articles based on that. These marriages were in trouble before they started swinging. In fact, they started swinging to try to “fix” or “spice-up” their marriage. Which is the wrong reason to do it. Most all swinger couples who’ve been in the lifestyle for any period of time will tell you that their marriage was far from needing fixing or spicing-up when they started swinging. Swinging is simply an extension of their already great relationship and sex life together. Again, a common misconception about swingers is that they swing because they are bored with each other. Well, a minority does and they leave the lifestyle as quickly as they enter it. The majority don’t.”

So let me get this straight, the “experts” don’t talk with people who have successful marriages, right? Well, that’s new information for me and I haven’t heard that one within academia. I am still waiting for the connection to benefit. I haven’t mentioned once attacking the individual who is involved in swinging. So the use of this paragraph is for what?

RacerX: “First, you obviously didn’t Google the study and actually read it before you made this post. From the intro to the study: “A total of 1187 questionnaires were returned. Of these, 95 were discarded because they were duplicates (probably reflecting “double-hits” on the return button) or for other reasons were determined to be invalid, leaving 1092 valid returns.”

No, you are right, I didn’t Google the study because I was still looking for the answer in my original question of benefit to society as a whole.

RacerX: “Of course all surveys must be random, and the statement above shows the ethnic break-down of those responding. Other than being a survey of active, happy, married for quite a while swingers, the survey was pretty unbiased to economic and ethnic groups. They didn’t go searching Hispanics, whites, or blacks, or rich people to get the answers they wanted. It is just a basic profile of the average swinger.”

Actually, not all surveys are random. You can have a survey in which you have a specific individuals specifically targeted within an organized meeting that doesn’t fit the criteria for randomized surveys. It’s one of many research tools in the area of research. We keep missing each other on this society and benefit thing. On another note, it’s assumed that you have to be white, middle-income and young to be the average swinger?

RacerX: “Doesn’t 50% – 60% of ALL marriages end in divorce? How is this hardly a true statement? When less then 0.01% of the population actually swings, they are definitely not making-up the 50% of all divorces. Unless I’m missing the fuzzy math here somewhere.

There is no hard evidence of divorce amongst swinging couples, however it is well estimated that less then 15% of swinger couples get divorced. More than three-times less then the rate of supposedly monogamous couples.”

Now let’s take a look at this. Remember the link that I gave you earlier, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_marriage. It actually talks about the pros and the cons of an open marriage. Now it’s been studied that couples that engage in this type of behavior have a HIGHER incident of jealousy. Well, I don’t know about you, but jealousy left unresolved turns into anger. Anger left unresolved turns into unhealthy actions. Unhealthy actions, one would hope, lead to separation. There are legal aspects to this aparent lifestyle that would be a problem since in a court of law, adultery is still used as a means of filing for divorce which is pretty expensive. So, if I was a betting man would this lifestyle have odds in favor of a solid marriage over time? Did you Google the percent of marriages that end in divorce?

RacerX: “Love and Respect.com is a Christian faith-based website and organization that charges $35.00 per person to go to one of there weekend “conferences” to learn how to love your spouse. A for-profit, religiously-biased source is hardly a good source for any honest and objective information.

Your opinions are are one-sided and biased, without any objectivity at all. I’ve read ALL the studies, good and bad. I speak from both experience and education on the subject.”

Oh no, do they charge a whopping $35 per person to go and learn about how to love and respect your mate? Stop the presses! That is totally dishonest. I mean in a capitilistic society, you charge money for materials, location, venue, markteting, etc.? Hold the phone! I know, that must be completely dishonest for them to do that. I am sure that this will prove that the information is totally terrible. Now, if a person wants to learn how to better himself/herself, doesn’t it usually cost money? I mean, I hope an individual would see themselves as valuable and spend some money on himself/herself. Maybe it’s indicative of our society that marriage needs to have the same level of importance in investing just as a 401K, IRA, and Stocks. Just a thought. And since you have read ALL the studies, good and bad as well as speak from both experience and education on the subject, then the answer that I have been waiting for is soon to appear on your next repy, right?

From KJE: “Why not talk about sexual practices in school? I mean, kids will be adults someday, so why not talk about the “benefits” now? What’s the harm? I mean this lifestyle is “healthy” for the whole of society, right? Why keep it a secret?”

Simple, because it’s a personal choice and isn’t for everyone. Why don’t we teach extreme skiing or sky diving or bungee jumping or race car driving in school? Same reason. They are personal life choices, not reading, writing, and arithmetic.

From KJE: “The question comes down to the benefit of the society over a long term. Civilizations have been wiped out over the course of human recorded history. The first indicator of a society headed toward destruction is the breakdown of the family unit. Once the family unit is destroyed, the society is in shamble due to the foundation. And swinging is a benefit or a hindurance. Looking forward to that answer.”

You can no more predict what effect 0.01% of the world’s population has on the decline of civilization then any other factor other then outright murderous chaos. It’s much like the gay marriage debate. Fundies go around screaming “what about the children?!” and claiming it will destroy the traditional family as we know it and that the world will come to an end if we allow it. Yet, not one opponent yet of same-sex marriage has been able to support this theory in any way shape or form. Not one, has been able to show the sequence of events once that first domino has been pushed.

Once again, it’s the fear of what others are doing rather than what you are doing.

From KJE: “Your study is pretty fascinating. When was the study again? Oh yeah, 2000. So it’s 7 years.”

And you are referring to Biblical scriptures, which are several peoples opinions, that were written 1,700 years ago. Not hardly a “study” in any sense of the word.

Keep in mind that many of the opinions of so-called “experts” in marriage counseling and psychology never deal with happily married couples. They deal with marriages in trouble and base their opinions and write their articles based on that. These marriages were in trouble before they started swinging. In fact, they started swinging to try to “fix” or “spice-up” their marriage. Which is the wrong reason to do it. Most all swinger couples who’ve been in the lifestyle for any period of time will tell you that their marriage was far from needing fixing or spicing-up when they started swinging. Swinging is simply an extension of their already great relationship and sex life together. Again, a common misconception about swingers is that they swing because they are bored with each other. Well, a minority does and they leave the lifestyle as quickly as they enter it. The majority don’t.

From KJE: “What a cross section of the U.S! I mean that proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that this random sampling of a cross section of the population constitutes the foundation of our society. What a benefit! How about I go and do a survey of rich, white business owners at a country club concerning how small businesses are faring in our inner cities across America? I am pretty sure I will have an answer that truly addresses the issue. It will be a great representation.”

First, you obviously didn’t Google the study and actually read it before you made this post. From the intro to the study: “A total of 1187 questionnaires were returned. Of these, 95 were discarded because they were duplicates (probably reflecting “double-hits” on the return button) or for other reasons were determined to be invalid, leaving 1092 valid returns.”

“While the General Social Survey selects subjects using a scientifically based, randomized, and therefore representative sample of Americans, the swingers surveyed in this research are not necessarily representative of all swingers in the U.S. They constitute a self-selected sample of members of swing clubs who chose to fill out an anonymous online survey about the swinging lifestyle. The sample is likely to be biased in favor of swingers who have experienced success with the lifestyle and to under-represent those who have dropped out of swinging or who have had negative experiences with it.”

This is true. It probably was biased toward successful swingers since those that got into swinging to fix a bad marriage just as quickly leave, go to marriage counseling whereby the counselor then writes some opinionated article about how swinging destroys marriages (see above). Those that do it for the right reason don’t have problems, and this represents the majority. We’ve personally seen three couples in the lifestyle in our area split-up over the years. One was using it to “fix” their relationship (which it didn’t, it just prolonged it’s demise a few months), and the other two split-up because of reasons completely unrelated to swinging, stuff like money and blended-family issues (like many other American couples).

“The sample of swingers used in this research presents a demographic profile of a person who is typically white, middle-aged, with two years of college education, previously divorced, in a current marriage that has lasted 10.5 years, and has been in the swinging scene about five years.”

From this statement you can clearly see that those that swing for the right reasons stay married.

“The subjects were predominately white at 90.4 percent of the sample. African-American’s were 4.1 percent of those sampled, Hispanic’s were 3.0 percent, and 1.5 percent indicated “other”.”

Of course all surveys must be random, and the statement above shows the ethnic break-down of those responding. Other than being a survey of active, happy, married for quite a while swingers, the survey was pretty unbiased to economic and ethnic groups. They didn’t go searching Hispanics, whites, or blacks, or rich people to get the answers they wanted. It is just a basic profile of the average swinger.

From KJE: “I would challenge anyone to prove to me that over the course of the next decade, that the relationships involved in swinging will last the test of time. I guess that could be a little difficult since 50-60% of marriages are ending in divorce?”

Doesn’t 50% – 60% of ALL marriages end in divorce? How is this hardly a true statement? When less then 0.01% of the population actually swings, they are definitely not making-up the 50% of all divorces. Unless I’m missing the fuzzy math here somewhere.

There is no hard evidence of divorce amongst swinging couples, however it is well estimated that less then 15% of swinger couples get divorced. More than three-times less then the rate of supposedly monogamous couples.

” KJE:What you won’t find is that there are marriages that are starting to get the real issue of the conflict. http://www.loveandrespect.com. Oh, and after 13 years of marriage for me, my “friends” that were involved in “extra curricular activities” within their marriages aren’t together now. I hope that truth will come out before others will become a statistic in this lifestyle.”

Love and Respect.com is a Christian faith-based website and organization that charges $35.00 per person to go to one of there weekend “conferences” to learn how to love your spouse. A for-profit, religiously-biased source is hardly a good source for any honest and objective information.

Your opinions are are one-sided and biased, without any objectivity at all. I’ve read ALL the studies, good and bad. I speak from both experience and education on the subject.

RR: Why not talk about sexual practices in school? I mean, kids will be adults someday, so why not talk about the “benefits” now? What’s the harm? I mean this lifestyle is “healthy” for the whole of society, right? Why keep it a secret?

You are right, judging happens all the time. I think that we can agree that we will still live through the ordeal. Can we look at information presented and make rational choices that help our society instead of harm it? We live in a moral universe. Every action has a reaction. What a person sows, a person will reap. It’s assumed that this happens all over the world, swinging. The question comes down to the benefit of the society over a long term. Civilizations have been wiped out over the course of human recorded history. The first indicator of a society headed toward destruction is the breakdown of the family unit. Once the family unit is destroyed, the society is in shamble due to the foundation. And swinging is a benefit or a hindurance. Looking forward to that answer.

RacerX: Your study is pretty fascinating. When was the study again? Oh yeah, 2000. So it’s 7 years. You know a study has more validity if there is a control group that has reptitious surveys that track the couples over decades! If you want to quote a 7 year study go ahead but make sure you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_marriage and go through the links and references of studies concerning open marriages and swinging. Take a look at the timetable for the studies. Come back and share with me over the foundation of a society of how it has helped again please?

The study was over “…the white, middle-class, middle-aged, church-going segment of the population reported in earlier studies. They are, however, more “middle-of-the-road” politically than other studies have found and, at least when it comes to attitudes about sex and marriage, may be less racist, less sexist, and less heterosexist than the general population.”

What a cross section of the U.S! I mean that proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that this random sampling of a cross section of the population constitutes the foundation of our society. What a benefit! How about I go and do a survey of rich, white business owners at a country club concerning how small businesses are faring in our inner cities across America? I am pretty sure I will have an answer that truly addresses the issue. It will be a great representation. I would challenge anyone to prove to me that over the course of the next decade, that the relationships involved in swinging will last the test of time. I guess that could be a little difficult since 50-60% of marriages are ending in divorce?

What you won’t find is that there are marriages that are starting to get the real issue of the conflict. http://www.loveandrespect.com. Oh, and after 13 years of marriage for me, my “friends” that were involved in “extra curricular activities” within their marriages aren’t together now. I hope that truth will come out before others will become a statistic in this lifestyle.

The fact is that these people passing judgment on others do so because they need that to make themselves feel better about themselves. They fear those different from them, whether it’s color, sex, religion, etc. A strong and secure person feels no need to pass judgment on others because they neither feel they are beneath anyone else or above them. Insecure people must pass judgment to tear-down others to make themselves feel superior and quiet the screaming insecurities and fears inside themselves.

The fact is, if no one ever said anything about it, it would still be going on. Just these self-righteous few would no know it and their life would still be no different than it is right now.

A few of my favorite quotes about this exact subject from some very wise people:

“Conventionality is not morality. Self-righteousness is not religion.” ~ Charlotte Bronte

“We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another.” ~ Jonathan Swift

“There is hardly anyone whose sexual life, if it were broadcast, would not fill the world at large with surprise and horror.” ~ W. Somerset Maugham

“When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic.” ~ Dresden James

“I’m not sure I want popular opinion on my side — I’ve noticed those with the most opinions often have the fewest facts.” ~ Bethania McKenstry

The last two are particularly suited to the naysayers about open relationships. They’ve been told something for so long that when an opposing idea comes along the messenger of it must be a raving lunatic.

From KJE: “Can anyone share statistics on the benefit of “swinging” on a society? Whether doing it on the sly or open, where is the benefit?”

Yes, I can. From a 2000 study of swingers done by Bellarmine University compared to the General Societal Survey:

“As shown in Table 4 swingers are slightly more likely than the general population to say that they are members of a religious organization.”

“The results, then, suggest that swingers in the sample are the white, middle-class, middle-aged, church-going segment of the population reported in earlier studies. They are, however, more “middle-of-the-road” politically than other studies have found and, at least when it comes to attitudes about sex and marriage, may be less racist, less sexist, and less heterosexist than the general population.”

When asked the question “Among all things in life, how important is being married?” the responses from swingers were 56.7% said “Most” or “Very” Important”, 28.9% said “Somewhat Important”, and 14.4% said ” ‘Not Too’ or ‘Not At All’ Important”. By comparative the GSS survey found 50.8%, 22.1%, 27.2% respectively.

Overall, swingers put a higher importance on being married then the general population does.

“A final measure of the normalcy (as opposed to marginality) of the swinging population used in this research was the presence of abuse or dysfunctional family backgrounds in their histories… Contrary to the assumptions underlying the pathological view of swingers, no statistically significant differences between the groups were found. If anything, the data suggest that swingers may view human nature as “good” slightly more than the GSS population.”

“How happy are the marriages of swingers? Table 14 compares how swingers and the G.S.S. sample of married persons rated the happiness of their marriages. Significant differences were found between the two groups, with swingers showing higher levels of happiness than married couples in the general population.

Among swingers, is there a relationship between swinging and marital happiness? Two questions on the survey – one which asked about their relationships before swinging and the other about them after swinging – are cross-tabulated in Table 15. As the data shows, 62.6% of swingers found that swinging improved their marriages/relationships, 35.6% said their relationships stayed about the same, and only 1.7% said they became less happy. Even among those who said their marriages were “Very Happy” prior to swinging nearly half (49.7%) said they became happier. Among those with the most unhappy marriages 90.4% said their relationship became happier after swinging. It appears that, at least among the sample of swingers used in this research, swinging tends to improve the perceived quality of the couples’ marriages regardless of how satisfying it was before swinging.”

“General life satisfaction was measured using two questions on the General Social Survey. Table 20 and Table 21 show the results of these two measures. Table 20 indicates that swingers rate themselves as significantly happier than the general population. Table 21 shows that swingers are significantly more likely to experience life as exciting rather than dull or routine. Although it could not be established in this research that swinging caused general happiness to increase, swingers do appear to lead happier and more exciting lives than non-swingers.”

Wow… doesn’t that blow allot of myths and assumptions about swingers right out of the water?

It’s not something I have tried but I don’t think that being loved and made to feel special should be overlooked because someone else thinks it is bad because of their own belief system, that should be private anyway, and not forced on others.

JFC, how can you blame swinging on the ruined relationship / friendship of two people and make any kind of claim that it wouldn’t have happened without swinging. More than half of the marriages today end in divorce and many of those are completely ruined relationship / friendships that affect the kids. In fact, I’ll try to find the reference (a book on “The lifestlye” but it makes very clear that divorce is much less common in swinging couples than in “monogomous relationships”. And I put that in quotes because the majority of monogomous relationships (yes, over half, look it up) are anything but. The just claim to be monogomous and hide all of their indiscretions from their partner. Yes, more than half of the marriages today have a partner that does or has cheated.
What’s funny is that cheating is much more widely accepted than a couple that agrees to sexual exploration together. Please explain that to me.
I state again, I got married because I love my wife more than any other. She’s my soulmate and I love spending very minute I can with her, even if we’re sexually involved with another at the time. I know that’s hard to understand, but for many, it works and it’s not for everyone. I don’t criticize your monogomy or implied monogomy to 1/2 the married couples out there, so why do we get criticized?

Mikal, why if your way right and this isn’t right?

At the risk of incurring the wrath of the other posters. I will have to take the middle position on this topic. If you and your spouse want to swing and are ok with it then have right at it, if thats what floats your boat. I am too afraid of the consequence. Your spouse is going to find someone who is better in the sack than you are. A better fitting piece of equipment or has better skills in one area or another. Lasts longer, more responsive or is more willing to perform certain acts than you. Then what happens? Then The “lifestyle” as you call it is not for me and my wife. I will freely admit that I am not secure enough in my own self that I could deal with this. My wife is a little more secure and could deal with it apparently if I was ok with it. She is of the opinion that if both spouses know about it and are ok with it, anything goes. I however, am of the the opinon that after the promises we made to each other to forsake all others, we are not able to give away what doesn’t belong to us any more.

Thats right folks she owns me, mind body and soul. I cannot give to another woman what belongs to my wife, it isnt mine to give. The same with her, she is mine and I am hers. It’s old fashioned I know, but it works for us.

The second is you are sharing the one of the most important people in your life with someone else, not to mention that you are sharing a very intimate part of yourself with someone else who is basically a stranger. How can that ever be a good thing?

This behavior demonstrates that you have no committment to the marriage and although some may respond that this extra sex is not related to the committment of marriage, that is a blatant lie that people tell themselves. You cannot separate the sex from the committment to the marriage. Otherwise if what you’re looking for is sex, why get married? This turns the relationship into a marriage of convenience. I can’t see any reason you would you stay together and work on the marriage because the committment is non-existent.

Also, from a christian belief standpoint, we are called to love unconditionally. However, we do not have to accept the behavior. We are called to a higher standard for our own behavior and that includes our beliefs. And while we can’t judge others, we are called to be “fruit inspectors”.

You should make your concerns known and be honest with your friends.

What I find fascinating is the understanding of the use of the word “Judging”. Our society has misused and abused that word more than anything else in order to justify acts that promote the destruction of a society. The word “judging” that is currently being used the context of this conversation comes from the Bible. And, the context that it is used comes through by not thinking of one’s self better than another human being. With saying that, it’s not a stick that can be used as a defense to say when an act is destructive to individuals.

Can anyone share statistics on the benefit of “swinging” on a society? Whether doing it on the sly or open, where is the benefit? No matter how a person can justify this lifestyle, why not start promoting this in the schools? Why not share this way of life to other countries who will see us as great people for sharing such a noble idea? No wonder other countries despise our nation for the “ideas” we want to promote.

Where do you draw the line between ‘acceptable’ beliefs or actions and ‘unacceptable’ ones? If someone ‘believes’ their neighbor to be the spawn of the devil and kills them and burns their house to the ground, should we NOT judge them since we feel there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’?

If you do not pass judgement on one behaviour, how can you do so on any other? At what point does ‘anything goes’, and the destructive self-indulgence it spawns, become unacceptable?

Society judges all the time. We pass laws to enforce those judgements for us, to allow society as a whole to balance the wants and desires of the one against the greater needs of the whole. This attitude of “if it doesn’t hurt anyone, what harm can there be” is the tip of a very slippery, very steep slope. Our ongoing acceptance of less and less and less has led to a degradation of our schools and our communities. Let’s not teach our children self-restrain and a sense of community — let’s just let them think it’s OK to take whatever they want, at the expense of others, and hope they figure out this ‘community’ thing on their own.

Is it any wonder we have overcrowded prisons, corrupt politicians, and have to lock ourselves in our homes at night to feel safe?

Explain your discomfort to your friends. If they respect you as much as you respect them, they will simply not discuss this aspect of their life while in your company. If they feel they have the ‘right’ to do as they please, perhaps they were not the friends you truly felt them to be.

My wife and I have been in the lifestyle for about 10 years, married for 9, and have enjoyed it throughout. It’s not for everyone, however we’re more comfortable and trusing of the other than any couple we know. It takes away the incentive to lie.

Why get married Nathu? Because she’s my soulmate and I can’t go a day without her. That doesn’t mean that we don’t enjoy sexual encounters with others.
Here’s a little lesson for those who are ignorant of the lifestyle. As a swinging couple, we ALWAYS play together and that’s the way most couples are. We might only involve others in our sex life maybe 5-6 times a year, it’s not all the time. There are some couples that do it every weekend and that’s fine, but for us it’s just something we do occasionally.

Keith, you say one person can satisfy you sexually or you should get out, then you follow with it’s natural to want to be intimate with another and we should be mature enough to not. First of all if you’re saying it’s natural to want sex with another, that means that it’s not because you’re not being satisfied with your partner, rather it’s natural to want to explore. Why can’t the maturity comment apply to exploring? Why can’t people be mature enough to seperate Love from Sex and allow that expoloration with others? You said yourself it’s a natural feeling.

Some people just want to be married and still do whatever they want. Take a look at hollywood sometime…..

SD

I personally won’t accept my partner getting involved in it but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong to do it.

The person writing in wanted advice, not judgement.

I can really see how that sort of situation could cause some strain on friendships. I don’t even have any idea how I would react to this.. I wonder if it was more of a betrayal feeling for the person.. They did say basically "everyone knew but me"

Very interesting content!

Yeah, the term swinging does indeed have a lot of perceived attached baggage. Which leads us to stereotypes, and that’s rarely useful.

Thanks for sharing your always profound and insightful perspective. And for sharing that example from your own relationship – that’s very helpful.

Have an awesome day!
Dan

Does anyone know how to stay married without “extras” like this included in your lives?

I think it’s tough enough already. Bring kids into it and wow. How will you do it?

Sex is such a powerful lure, that it’s among the greatest temptations out there.

In my opinion it’s tempting to think that it’s okay, but I know full well that it’s not going to add the sweetness to life.

Wendy

Have an awesome day!
Dan

While I disagree with that idea of being a swinging married couple, I also understand I am not in the position to judge…

If I were you I’d still be friends with them. I don’t support George Bush or the war, but doesn’t mean I’m not friends with Republicans!