Shocking Sex Poll Results - The Surprising Verdict on Swinging and Polyamory!

46 Responses to “Shocking Sex Poll Results - The Surprising Verdict on Swinging and Polyamory!”

1. Jane on February 27th, 2007 10:19 pm

   I was really surprised at the poll!! Great posts and poll guys.

   Also, thank you for coming to the site and voting. I think I’m leaning to our current banner as a contest winner too, but we are including 2 more that people can comment on.

   Thanks again Dan and Jennifer!!!

   Jane

2. Cal on February 28th, 2007 12:05 am

   Maybe I’m stupid, but the 13% who said it’s not for them but that they don’t mind anyone else doing it still said it’s not for them. That would make them personally opposed, just not culturally opposed or indifferent as the reporting seems to suggest. So the opposed, regardless of degree, looks like 55%, not 42%.

3. Dan and Jennifer on February 28th, 2007 12:17 am

   Hi Cal.

   You’re certainly not stupid. I have updated the text of this article to more clearly explain the results.

   The difference is that those who said "Monogamy is the only way to go" are saying that for everyone, not just themselves… The one’s that I have labelled as indifferent are those who voted that it’s not for them, but they have no preference as to what others do.

   Of course, the results of this poll, just as any other study are completely open to interpretation by the individuals conducting the study and those reading it.

   It’s all perception and we all have different perceptions :-).

4. Jane on February 28th, 2007 3:55 pm

   What I still can’t believe is that “45% of the people polled were either active in the swinging lifestyle or willing to try it.” Now that’s something to think about!!!

5. freb black on February 28th, 2007 9:33 pm

   I used to swing but my rope broke

6. Alice on February 28th, 2007 9:56 pm

   You Two make me sick

7. Aniela on February 28th, 2007 11:44 pm

   Great poll guys ! I can’t say I’m too surprised at the results, after all it’s 2007.
   I would’ve liked to see some stats based on age as well. I think we could definitely see a trend there.

8. AGIT ABU on March 1st, 2007 4:51 am

   This poll suggests that Sodom and Gomorrah are emerging out of your moral morass.
   Watch out America! Will you survive the FIRE?

9. Petronius on March 1st, 2007 6:18 am

   It’s very important to distinguish between “swinging”, a largely recreational activity not focussed on relationships; “polyamory”, the freedom to have multiple relationships, both formal and informal; and “polyfidelity”, a form of polyamory where nobody goes outside the boundaries of an agreed upon group.

   I’ve known I was “poly” since I was 12, just as many people realize they’re gay when still quite young. My wife and I were polyamorous both before and after we married, though we’ve occasionally experimented with monogamy. We’ve been married for 26 years. For the last 9 years we’ve lived in a polyfidelitous household with another couple, raising together their 2 daughters and our 2 sons. The other wife and I have a girlfriend as well who visits frequently and whom we visit in various combinations: it’s a triad overlapping a tetrad.

   It’s very complex, and not something I would recommend anyone try who isn’t utterly committed to it, especially not if one partner is trying to leverage another partner into adding more. It works well for us, and for our many “poly” friends, but it’s not something most people can handle. It takes an incredibly high level of honesty, communication, and creativity. It certainly isn’t something to try if you have trouble maintaining one relationship. I’ve always thought it unrealistic and unfair to expect one person to fulfill all of my needs and desires; believe me, I’m really fulfilled. I’m the luckiest man in the world and I know it.

   Our kids range from 16 to 24, and don’t seem any more screwed up than any of their friends. In fact, their friends tend to be astonished that we eat dinner together every night, unlike their “normal” families, and many of them drop in around dinner time to enjoy the family experience. Who’s got family values now?

10. TaintedBySin on March 1st, 2007 6:47 am

    I just hope everyone one realizes that the poll is based on only consumer desire to participate and retricted to those who even visit this site so before anyone makes any claims of anything just understand what or more precisely whom this can be used, having not personally taken the quiz nor containing any desire to do so my opinion to most of you is probably being disregarded offhand now, having that said i suggest that all of you think back to the poll and one make sure that each question was asked numerous times each time in a different word choice or proximity to other possibly biasing questions, then look at the number of people who have taken the poll 2300…the accuracy of the sample size is dependent only on the population number 2300 might be representative of a population of 5,000 but not of 200,000 especially since their is an extreme bias in those who took the poll to begin with as mentioned aforehan,likewise one must also take into effect not only the question asked the number of times asked and how they were asked but also the answers they were able to provide, with multiple choice exams you can quickly record the results of thousands of people which is exactly the problem because you are assuming these people are on the same degree just because they choose that choice, presenting people with black white options tends to extreme the results in either direction9however i did note they provided a nice array of answer0 so while it is great to look at these results and start to make assumptions about the “new generation” of lovers or watever you wish to infer about understand that it is irrelevant to the grand scheme of things…

11. Matt on March 1st, 2007 7:50 am

    I feel it is not a bad thing as long as you and your partner set some grounds rules. My wife and I tried it a few times. We set up the rules before hand. The most important thing is that I was not allowed to penetrate the other girl, all other things for everyone was ok. It was fun for a little bit but nothing beats the one on one with the woman you love. Oh and to answer the age thing we are 25 and 22.

12. Dr. C Reuben Geeslin on March 1st, 2007 11:50 am

    The best cultural anthropologist already conclusively determined that no such thing  as monogamy exist as a natural state amongst human beings. Human beings are Primary, not monogamous. Primary means we want one person most of the time but not always! If you were monogamous in ancient times and the sabre tooth ate your spouse you would likey not survive!

    Suggest for the university based facts, not Christian moral myths, try reading Helen Fisher, Professor Emeritus at Rutgers, "Why we Love".

13. Chingaria on March 1st, 2007 1:12 pm

    I think polygomy and swinging disrupts your sense of identity and self. It disrupts your connection with the one you truly love and just adds unnecessary drama in your life.

    If you find the ‘act’ fullfilling, but not the relationship, then you never really achieved a mature connection with somebody to begin with. If you think life is mechanical and is only a result of actions, then you never really connected to somebody.

    If you truly love and respect somebody, then you’ll only want that one person.

14. kk on March 1st, 2007 1:37 pm

    It is not right to swing.

    But would like to try. Cannot resist the temptation of attractive females.

    Sorry about that.

15. AGIT ABU on March 1st, 2007 2:39 pm

    It is my view that some of your published comments serves to confirm the truth of Proverbs: a man’s ways are right in his own eyes, but the Lord ponders the heart. When we do not heed the word of God, we self destruct. Please publish the following excerpt from the biblical book of Romans 1:18 -
    Rom 1:18-32
    18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
    19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
    20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities– his eternal power and divine nature– have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
    22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
    23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
    24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
    25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator– who is forever praised. Amen.
    26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
    27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
    28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
    29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
    30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
    31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
    32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
    (NIV)

16. Kay on March 1st, 2007 3:33 pm

    Many of us who are against this type of lifestyle for anyone will not even look at a site like this, so the whole poll is skewed toward those who would be willing to try it.

17. Bill N. on March 1st, 2007 4:12 pm

    People are always looking for true love, a deep commitment, someone who just completes you. And when you find that someone, you want them forever. So you commit to them to be theirs to the end of life, in exchange for their doing the same thing for you. You promise not to walk away from them during their bad times, their down times, their times when they are not “doing any for you”, even times when they may never be able to give back. Marriage is both a gift received and given. To do this for someone on the planet, to give without hope of return, is what makes us human, and good, and operating as we were designed. But to enter into a mutual relationship where each does that for the other, wow now that is ecstacy.

    I hope people that are “swinging” stop and realize: you’ll find what you are looking for when you become what others are looking for: stable, committed, not out to please yourself, but out to build others up. And when you become that someone, and someone like that finds you…WOW now that is wonderful.

    And when you stick to each other during the times you aren’t like that, now THAT is commitment. And let me tell you, the same two magnets that attract, if one of them turns 180 degrees, they repell each other. The commitment of marriage is saying, “I’ll tie myself to you through thick and thin, so that you can get through this.” Do you know what a blessing it is to have someone say, “You can dump on me and I won’t reject you. I will support you in becoming the best you can be.” What more could we ask than for someone to love us and forgive us despite our imperfections, and still seek our own good ahead of their own.

    Marriage, it will always be the way to go. It is truly what people are looking for. Some people may get a kick out of feeding their physical appetite for pleasure alone, no matter what effect it has on others.

    But such a person isn’t honoring anyone. They are self-absorbed, and so much so they don’t know they are harming their own soul and pysche. You cannot be made whole by invading another person’s deeply private and intimate selves, and then dumping them. The path to wholeness and completeness and happiness is not found by destroying other’s chances for it.

    For all those who are failing to support others whoh are trying to remain committed in their marriages in difficult times, help them by honoring that commitment yourselves and staying away from them. If you had a mom and dad all your childhood, pass the gift on.

    You have my best wishes to make this world a better place–and in the process of doing so, finding someone who makes your world (your inner self) an even more wonderful place to be by their being willing to stay the course with you, thick and thin, to complete you, to cherish you, to love you, to forgive you, to not reject you, to work for your highest good, and to love on you.

    When two people get a kick out of being with each other, that’s a good start. But you need a rope to hang on, during the wild rides that happen. That rope is marriage. Without it, tough times will ROB you of the pleasures you could have if you stuck with it. There is nothing like a lifelong partner. The more storms you weather, the closer you are.

    Be willing to weather some storms, to give without return. If you do, you will have many more returns than you can imagine. Mostly, be a good person, ok?

18. Jeff Kee on March 1st, 2007 6:42 pm

    I disagree with anybody branding each other to be right or wrong.

    I’ve been pitching this for a while but there’s no moral right or wrong in this world. It’s just in certain societies that allow or disallow certain things.

    Countries like Afghanistan have strict rules on how much exposure women can have in public (almost none) while in USA and Europe, strip bars are legal.

    I cannot tell the Afghanis to change their perception of women because that’s what their culture views women as. And if an Afghani told us that Strip bars are immoral (I’m sure a lot of North Americans feel the same way too) we’d be pissed.

    I’m not into swinging (although I’m single and I get what I can get from multiple partners - but I’m not in any kind of a relationship and I don’t want one right now) but I don’t think ANYBODY has the right to brand anything as immoral.

    Think of the Christianity rules this way - God never changes but the religion does. God is far greater than something or somebody who would be concerned about whether we pray or not. God does not concern itself with whether one kills another or steals a wallet. God does not care if we cheat, lie, deceive.

    The scripture, the rules, the commandments are more of restrictive governmental guidelines that emerged out of the old days when Religion and State were one, and a religious bond was required bring unity amongst its people.

    Religion and religiosity is something that evolves with people. Back in the days it was immoral for women to wear short skirts or work in public - or if they did they were viewed as trashy, cheap, and unchristian. Does that apply to the rules today? What would you say if a woman couldn’t work at a card dealership because it involves talking to many other men and is considered by a scripture to be immoral?

19. Joe on March 1st, 2007 10:57 pm

    I’ve been trying to get my wife to try swinging since we married 15 years ago. At the time I was 26 & she was 23. She was very against it back then. I am now 41 and she is 38. every year the sex gets kinkier and kinkier which includes sex toys. In the heat of the moment she will always reference that there are not enough hands or mouths on her and wishes she could taste breasts and have multiple penises on different areas of her body because my one is not enough (sugar coating the terms here and what she really calls things in bed). When things settle down, she says that she just says those things in the heat of the moment very unconvicingly and with hesitation. It’s as if you can tell there is more of an interest but she has not gotten up the courage to say lets go for it. I am convinced if we experimented she would be glad we did and happily accept our new lifestyle. I know she would be interested in sex with other men and women both. I have decided to schedule a night out with her for dinner and drinks and conveniently show up at a swingers club as an after hours activity. I know she will be nervous once she sees where we show up but once she gets into the action will open up to what I believe she really wants. I can’t wait!

20. RR on March 6th, 2007 6:05 am

    Let me start with AGIT ABU. Your entire post is a quote from the bible. My question to you is have you read the rest of the bible as well.
    Matthew 7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged”
    Matthew 5:32 “anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultry” (what is your take on someone who marries a divorced woman? Do you act as harshly towards that “sin” or are you selective in who you judge?)
    How about the many rules in Leviticus? Do you eat lobster? Sorry, that’s a sin. Does the female in your relationship take two doves to the preacher to be sacraficed after her monthly cycle to attone for her uncleanliness? Sorry, that’s a sin if not. I know, you’re going to say it’s the old testament. Well where in the new testament does it say everything in the old testament is null and void? Many of the things people hold to today are from the old testament, so why the selectivity in what’s a sin and what isn’t? I think Jeff Kee has it right when he says religion changes with society and the people in it selectivly choose what to adhere to and what’s now acceptable. I’m curious to hear what you think.
    BILL N.. Why do you say that those in the swinging lifestyle are not stable or committed? I’m as committed to my wife as anyone. Just because we enjoy sexual encounters with others (always together by the way) just increases our bond, trust and love for each other. I would say that to stifle your spouse’s sexuality would be more selfish than to explore each others sexual desires togehter. That’s not to say that everyone wants to engage in this typs of activity, and that’s fine. But for one partner to put those rules on the other can be more harmful than to just explore together. More than half of marriages today have a partner that has or is currently cheating. So, the numbers are on my side that people have interest in others sexually. Now, for those couples in a swinging lifestlye this interest in others is encouraged and enjoyed together. In tightly monagomous relationships, this interest in others can or will lead to divorce. As relationships grow, peoples sexual desires will change and grow. For those in monagomous relationships that feel strongly against anything that might be considered taboo, their partner must hide their desires and in many cases go outside the relationship to experiment with their new desires.
    Why do you think thee is so much infidelity in marriage today?
    JOE - be careful tricking your wife into swinging. If it’s not something that she’s interested in while not in the “heat of the moment” then it’s not something she’s ready for. I’d suggest talking more about it before or after, as well as during sex. This will help her discover if she truly has an interest in mulitple partners. It sounds as if she does. However, the mistake I see most guys make is they try to push the issue rather than letting it happen naturally. Just a little advice.
    To everyone out there, remember we’re all “kinky” or “taboo” when compared to others. No matter how tame or traditional your sex life may be, there are those that will say you’re committing a sin by having sex without the intent of pro-creation. Or will say oral sex is a sin, or sex in anything other than the missionary position is a sin, or sex with the lights on is a sin.. etc, etc. So, we all agree, we just disagree on where the line of sin is. Think about it folks!! In the meantime, let’s all have great asex life without judging your partner, in fact, go home and ask them what their fantasy is and help them fulfill it.

21. Bill N. on March 7th, 2007 7:46 am

    RR,
    1) To AGIT ABU you wrote, “where in the new testament does it say everything in the old testament is null and void?”

    Jesus himself made the new covenant, replacing the old:

    1 Corinthian 11:25 “In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood;’”

    Hebrews 8:7-8 “…For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.”

    Hebrews 8:13 “By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete;”

    Also, remember what the word “Testament” itself means! Webster, “1a archaic : a covenant between God and the human race bcapitalized : either of two main divisions of the Bible.”

    The very words “New Testament” MEANS new covenant, new agreement, new deal.

    Not only does the title of the “New Testament” itself proclaim it is a new set of rules, but also the text within it, and the very words of Jesus himself.

    I hope that helps. By the way, have you entered into that new covenant with him? Have you considered it?

    2) To me you wrote “Why do you think there is so much infidelity in marriage today?”

    Answer: Partly because of “swinging”

    Lastly, you asked me “Why do you say that those in the swinging lifestyle are not stable or committed?”

    Answer: Because the word commitment, when used to refer to sexual relationships, means committing yourself to only one person. Lots of movies or shows talk about a guy who is “not willing to commit”–and that always means the same thing: He wants to still have relations with many girls and not stick with just one. Stable is pretty much synonymous, but has a nuance about time. You are in mind “committed”, and in practice “stable” in that commitment.

    I think that’s about all I can say along these lines. It appears you are pretty set in your thinking.

22. Jonathan on March 8th, 2007 11:24 pm

    The bible contains non-monogamy, so the lord said it was good as long as it was consensual “in the heart”. Love thy neighbor and respect your parents. Don’t lie and god will love you. Do not covet thy neighbors wife unless they are in an open marriage. (^:

    Jonathan

23. Bill N. on March 9th, 2007 3:03 am

    Jonathon,

    You wrote that God’s view is “Do not covet thy neighbors wife unless they are in an open marriage.”

    You missed one of the Ten Commandments: Exodus 20:14 “You shall not commit adultery.” Webster defines adultery as “Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband.”

    And you missed Jesus’ teaching, Matthew 19:9 Jesus replied, “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

    People in the Bible would divorce their wives and then marry someone else, and then divorce that person and remarry their wife, to try to get around the clear commandment “You shall not commit adultery.” However, Jesus said that even that was adultery. To have sexual relations with someone is to be wed to them in God’s eyes. And to be unfaithful to that person by having sexual relations with another is against the Ten Commandments, and the New Testament carries this teaching over.

    You also wrote, “The bible contains non-monogamy, so the lord said it was good as long as it was consensual ‘in the heart.’” I think the above notations however would speak against that.

    I’m curious: Does understanding the Bible better change your views about swinging?

24. RR on March 9th, 2007 4:19 am

    Bill N. You’re taking a current definition of the words to define a book written 1600 years ago in a language that has no direct translation into English and you’re going to tell me that the Webster’s dictionary defines the word testament a certain way.
    No where in the New Testament does it say clearly the old testament is null and void or no longer valid.
    You later quote Exodus from the old testament and the ten commandments “thou shalt not commit adultery” (again taking a current modern day definition of adultery, which I believe will soon be replaced with a definition that included the intent to deceive) And if you say the new testament does clearly say the old testament is null and void, how do you then quote the 10 commandments in Exodus? (from the old testament) Again people, you can’t pick and choose, either it’s null and void or it’s not.

    Bill N Wrote
    “I’m curious: Does understanding the Bible better change your views about swinging?”

    Absolutely not! Why is the bible right, why is the old testament (some parts) wrong? Why is the Koran Wrong? Why are Hindus / Muslims / Buddists / Jews / and all other religions wrong? Why are you right? If you talk to them, they’ll say you’re wrong and you’re going to hell, and they’ll then quote their Holy book as to why. So, basically whether or not you’re going to hell or heaven is determined by where you were born. Born in a Christian society and choose to accept it, going to heaven. Born in a Buddist society (which many will say is a much more holy life than any other) sorry, going to hell because you chose to worship Buddah rather than Jesus.
    But wait, if you’re born in a christian society and you’re catholic rather than baptist or vice versa or you’re a protestant or methodist.. oops, right religion, wrong sect, sorry going to hell. How is this the commonly accepted view on religion?
    I’m what you would call an agnostic. I believe there might be some higher power, might not be, but I just don’t know. What I will say I believe is that my life isn’t determined by some book whether it be the bible or any other religious text. I live my life by what is right and wrong and what can be explained and proven to be right or wrong. Let me also say that I’m a conservative (politically) agnostic and I don’t think prayer should be removed form schools or that the phrase “in god we trust” should be removed from the bible. I believe in common sense and a majority of american citizens are religious and want those items available.

    There are many problems with the new testament as well as the old testament. There are many problems with using this religious document as “proof” of what’s right or wrong. My right or wrong can be proven logically rather than with faith. By the way, do you understand the definition of faith? Faith means believing without proof, if you had proof, it would just be. So, if you don’t have proof, how do you know what you’re believing in?

    You say that swinging is partly the cause of infidelity in marriage. Why is it then that more “monagomous” relationships end in divorce from infidelity than in swinging relationships?

    I ask again, what would happen if you’re wife came to you with a fantasy that involved something that you considered taboo? Would she come to you or would she go elsewhere knowing how you would react? I don’t know, but I know logically what the answer would be. I don’t know you, but from your posts, I know that you would probably judge and try to “Fix” her, I’m guessing through the chruch.

    How do you answer people that are more religious than you and feel that your level of sexual involvement with your wife is taboo? I don’t know your limits, but many will say (and I’m sorry to those that have read other posts of mine, I’m yet to get a solid answer or any answer for that matter) that sex for anything other than pro-creation is a sin, or sex with the lights on is a sin, or sex in anything other than the missionary position is a sin, or oral sex is a sin (most definitions will include oral sex in the definition of sodomy). So, why is your level of sexual “acceptance” the acceptable level and not mine or others that are more conservative than you?
    Sorry this is so long, but I’m still waiting on answers other than some obscure quote from the bible that have nothing to do with the questions posed to you.
    Also, let me make this clear. If religion is your chosen path, I make no judgements for that path and I commend you for your choice and discipline. I would never want to make anyone question their faith nor do I think I have the ability to do so. But again, I think it’s a individual choice. The problem however is the judgemental attitude that comes from the other side towards how I live my life.

25. Bill N. on March 9th, 2007 7:54 am

    RR,

    I used the Webster’s definition because it was handy and an easy way to illustrate that people are changing the definitions of things today to be different than what these words have meant for a couple thousand years. Websters doesn’t define the Bible’s words. In this particular case in which I quoted it, it REFLECTS the same definition as the Bible. I tried to appeal to a common view point since we don’t share a Hebrew dictionary together. You hit the nail on the head, that definitions will be replaced. For now, I was talking about swinging as an ancient practice that now goes by the label “swinging”, and used the word adultery as it has been defined for a couple thousand years (which includes swinging).

    Regarding the Old Testament being null and void, I should have expanded on that much better. Sorry about that. I wondered how deep I should go in such a limited forum. Since you bring it up again, it is worth clarifying.

    The Old Testament has some laws that reflect the moral nature of God and some that regard the rituals of man. The animal sacrifice system was clearly abolished when Christ offered himself as the ultimate sacrifice. I can provide many Bible references if needed. The laws about which foods to eat were also clearly abolished, as the New Testament also clearly and specifically indicates. So were observing special days. But what hasn’t changed is the character of God, which is to be our character. And anything in the Old Testament that reflects his moral character is still in effect.

    It is my belief that since he asks for faithful devotion to him, and since marriage is a reflection of the relationship he wants us to have with him, I believe the first commandment, “You shall have no other gods” reflects that part is just part of who God is and is an eternal thing. I really made a mistake assuming you were thinking only about sacrifice laws and things like that, so I didn’t try to take on that phrase “null and void” but I should have listened to that voice in the back of my head.

    If you ask me has God changed his moral character and his moral laws, I would say no. Does the Old Testament contain those? Yes. Are those void? No. Are those contained in the New Testament also? Yes. In fact, several of them are QUOTED in the New Testament. If we lost the Old Testament, the moral laws are still seen in the New Testament.

    The concept of adultery was brought forward into the New Testament by Jesus own words. The Bible doesn’t allow for someone to say that the prohibition against adultery no longer applies. And it also doesn’t let people say that the rules regarding animal sacrifice are still in effect.

    Please forgive me for not reading where you were going with this and for failing to take the time to explain more carefully.

    You have a lot of views and objections to Christianity. I could deal with those one by one. But my question would be the same as it was with swinging: “Does this change anything for you?” (”Absolutely not!” you wrote to my last question like that.)

    Also, you mentioned the subject of faith. Faith does not mean “believing without proof” as you said. Jesus asked people to believe in him on account of his miracles if they would not believe him because of his words. In other words, he said, “Consider the evidence that my miracles point to.”

    Please don’t come down too hard on a poor analogy but when a bank grants you credit, it does so exercising faith that in the future you will pay them back even though they cannot guarantee you will. But based on your credit history, they see a pattern in you and based on that they extend this trust. In the same way, the Bible says that faith itself is a gift of God. How is it a gift? How can faith be a gift? Well, God’s actions are recorded in it, real things he did. And these actions lead to conclusions about how God is and how he deals with us. Based on what he did for us in Jesus Christ, we can have faith that he will forgive us also. That kind of thing.

    Faith is based on reason, but goes beyond reason. God expects us to have faith. Why? Because of all the things he has done for us in the past. He expects us to apply that to the future and get the message that he will be the same yesterday, today and forever. By his actions.

    I wouldn’t say that where you were born determines whether you go to heaven. It’s not wise in this forum to get too deeply into that and books have been written on this one. But there are answers for these questions if you are interested in them. I read a book once entitled “What about those who have never heard.” You might look it up. Two of the three writers were serious and one not as serious. They presented three different views, in point counterpoint format. Interesting to say the least.

    Most people who say something is right or wrong judge by their preferences, not based on a belief in a universal standard that governs all people for all time. They would say, “It is wrong to tell others they are wrong.” But by doing so, they commit the “wrong” they say is wrong. Is it wrong to have and act on a belief in right or wrong. Should we stop a murder? Is murder wrong? Should we stop people from stealing? Is stealing wrong. If something is wrong in that strong moral way, it gives you the right to judge another by that standard. The real argument is: who has the right standard. So, were you wrong when you said it is wrong for people to say that others are wrong?

    It doesn’t matter to our discussion why many “monagomous” relationships end in divorce. I was discussing swinging as not being supported by the Bible. Are you switching away from that discussion, or do you actually grant that the Bible does indeed teach against multiple concurrent sexual relationships. That’s the whole point of why I wrote the last submission–because someone said the bible supported it. This other question about monogamy can be fielded, but it’s not why I am writing. So, do you feel the Bible, as written, actually supports swinging or opposes it? Or was that not your issue. I don’t think it was your issue.

    Yes, I would try to help my wife if she had thoughts I thought were “taboo”. Yes, through her own relationship with God and my praying to God about the issue and asking his help.

    I have to say that no one knows anything about my sexual relationship with my wife that they would think it is taboo in some way, so I can’t comment on how I answer people because I can’t imagine the question. Sex is a gift from God. God meant it to be used in a one to one permanent relationship. You ask me for my level of acceptance of various things, and wonder if it includes things like oral sex or sodomy or things like that. You are asking for answers on things I don’t wish to discuss in public. But even if I did, what would you gain from hearing from me. Doesn’t sound like anyone’s opinion matters to how you feel on these things. Sounds like you already know there is a difference and already have opinions about them. I cleared up the bible issue and asked if that made a difference and you said absolutely not.

    And regarding this last statement: “The problem however is the judgemental attitude that comes from the other side towards how I live my life.” I’ll leave that one lay. Why? We are talking about swinging. So, like you, I’m going to share my opinion, and mine is that the optimum and best is one man and one woman. Secondly, when people say the Bible supports it, I’m chimed in and correct that error because I am familiar with the Bible enough to clear up that misconception.

    Beyond that, I don’t think I need to pound on my opinion, do you?

    I just shared freely like others my view on swinging

    Judgemental. It is a good word. It can be good and bad. I disagree with your views. I don’t subcribe to them. I don’t think they are best. I am making judgments, yes. The thing is, we can discuss our judgements without being demeaning. I think we did that here.

    This is tiring.

    This forum is about swinging. My view was expressed earlier. Someone mentioned the Bible supported swinging. I, hopefully, clarified for certain it does not.

    That’s what this forum was about.

    Now, all this other stuff, we’d better cease, as we are getting off the topic. Good stuff you are discussing, and worthy to discuss, just not here in this forum (or we’ll be out of line for what it is about)!

    I will read your next post if you have one, but I’m terrible at finding a stopping point, so I’ll try for this to be my last.

    That’s it for me. Have a good day RR. Bye now.

26. RR on March 12th, 2007 11:54 am

    Bill N,
    Sorry it’s taken so long for my response. I didn’t receive an email letting me know you had responded.
    You mention that the definition of Adultery for the past couple thousand years has included swinging. What is your source for that information? And if you say the bible, the bible also states that if a man marries a woman who is divorcd, he commits adultery (matthew 4:32) so I think we can both agree that the biblical definition of adultery is extremely outdated.
    Regarding the old testament vs the new testament, you had made it very clear that there was a new “testament” or “covenant” in your previous post that the old testament was obsolete.

    “Hebrews 8:13 “By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete;”

    Now you’re saying that only parts of the old testament are obsolete and others are still valid. I don’t mean to pick at what you’re saying, it just seems convenient how what you’re saying changes as the need for biblical references changes. That’s one of the problems with the bible or any religious text, they’re open to interpretation. One thing will “symbolize” another, well, someone else might just interpret that as something else. But I guess that’s what preachers and pastors are for, to tell us what to believe. (trying not to be completely sarcastic here..lol..)
    It’s funny you bring up the “you shall have no other gods before me” Doesn’t that clearly state that there are other gods? Keep in mind, at that time all society had a polytheistic mindset. This was clearly a rule to make this the number one god above others.
    I agree with you and don’t want to make this soley a biblical discussion, but since the majority of people who are critisizing this lifestlye seem to quote the bible as reference, it seems appropriate for some discussion.
    Let me apologize for the way I answered your question before about changing the way I feel towards swinging with an “Absolutely not!” I guess in writing, things can come across differently that intended, and re-reading my statement, I can see where you took that as a rude comment. It wasn’t intended that way, just trying to say that using the bible as a reference doesn’t change how I think about swinging. The same way as if I showed you a book that was a collection of swinging stories and told how people improved their relationships by swinging wouldn’t change your opinion. You and I look at the bible differently. I think of it as a book written by man to help bring some peace and law to a very unruly society, you think of it as the word of god. With that difference, you and I will never see eye to eye on many many topics.

    When you talk about faith, you say:
    “God’s actions are recorded in it, real things he did.”
    What proof do you have that god did anything. Other than a book that wasn’t even written for approx 400 years after these events occured. This again shows how differently we both read the bible. You read it as fact, I read it as a collection of stories. For example in the book of Job, how do you accept that “god” destroyed this man’s life, his livestock, killed his children and servants all for a “bet” with the devil? You might say at the end, he got more kids and more servants and more livestock. That does nothing to the families of the original servants that were killed or for his original kids that were killed. He got more materialistic things in the end than he had before and this is what the lesson of Job is, stick with god through thick and thin and you’ll be rewarded in the end. This is such a “man made” story.
    You bring up a book “What about those who have never heard.” in response to my question about birthplace having to do with religion. That answers a small part of my question. My point wasn’t really for those who haven’t heard as much as those who live in other parts of the world where they know of Chrisitanity, but the accepted practice is (insert any other religion here). Where you are born has direct implications as to what religion you are. There are small exceptions to this of course, but if you live in a buddist country, you’re most likely going to be buddist, regardless of what religions you’ve read about or heard about. Same goes for muslims, hindus etc.
    What about the differents sects of christianity here in the US. I was listening to catholic radio a few days ago and heard the host talking about how only catholicism holds 100% truth and that other sects of christianity can only hold some percentage of truth where they are in agreement with catholicism. My thought process if “you’ve got to be kidding me.” People buy into this. Depending on what person and how “hardcore” they are, regarding the truth of their particular sect, will depend on whether the people of different sects of christianity will end up in hell for not agreeing. Others will say that since they accepted Jesus as their savior they’re good. How can any one person say that their’s is the ONLY way. This goes for different religions as well as different sects of christianity.
    And you’re right when you say that everyone judges and for different reasons. The difference is when one person judges based on a religion that others may not agree with. I could probably find mormon scriptures that will back the swinging or poly lifestlye, but would that do anything for you? I’m guessing not, so why bother.
    To answer your question regarding if the bible supports swinging. I will agree with you one hundred percent. The bible doesn’t support swinging and if I read that previous post correctly, I think the individual you were speaking of was being sarcastic in his response. But that’s just how I read it, maybe I’m wrong.
    Regarding my question to you involving your sexual preferences vs others. I was in no way asking you to discuss what you do behind closed doors. I was only pointing out that no matter how “tame” “vanilla” “conservative” or “traditional” (not trying to be derogatory, just whatever term gets my point across) your sex life might be, there will be others that will say that you’re commiting a sin by your sexual practices. Read above examples in earlier posts.
    But again, why is your level of sexual acceptance the correct one since you can easily find people on both sides of where you draw your line of acceptable sexual involvement?
    Let me give you some credit as well for the way you have handled this discussion. And when I critisize others for the way they have judged us in the swinging lifestlyle, let me make clear, you’re not included in that criticism. Others have shown joy and comfort in the belief that those of us who choose this “alternative” lifestlye will be punished in the end. Many have reveled in the belief that our kids will suffer. (read other comments in the original post) How can this be a healthy belief? This is what I was talking about when I was discussing those who judge, and how the most hatred and animosity has come from those who use religion as their reason.
    Again, I have enjoyed our discussion and thank you for your comments and your friendliness throughout. You are one who leads by example as opposed to the many I discussed above, and I thank you for that. It appears as this discussion seems to be coming to an end and I wish you the best as well as the many others that have chimed in on this topic.

27. Bill N. on March 13th, 2007 5:17 am

    RR,

    We have several topics before us. Let’s clarify what they are and knock them off one by one. Lets be succinct and strive for mutual understanding of each other’s opinions, even if we don’t agree. OK.

    1) Adultery. The Webster’s definition and the Bible’s definition match. A married person having sexual relations with someone not their spouse commits adultery.

    2) Old Testament obsolete, null & void. You started by referencing Leviticus, Lobster and a female taking two doves to the preacher to atone for her uncleanness after her monthly cycle. You guessed I would say, “It’s in the old testament,” and asked where does it say that everything in the old testament is null and void. The things are referenced above are null and void. The Old Testament contains a record of several covenants. The one at Mount Sinai is such a covenant (Ten Commandments). It contained rules for spiritual purity, for civil law, and for ceremonial purity. The spiritual part is transcendent, timeless. The civil laws (national laws) are not transcendent. The ceremonial laws were fulfilled in Christ, the ultimate sacrifice, the purification for all uncleanness. I regret writing loosely with my words. It was to those ceremonial laws I was referring. I guessed that was all you were thinking and chose to use your terms null & void based on the examples you gave.

    3) No other gods. You pick things to ask about that are not easy to field briefly as I would like. The Bible clearly states there are no other gods. However, the people on earth believed there were. An idol is an object fashioned in the image of what they believe are gods.

    1 Corinthians 8:4 We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one…. 7 But not everyone knows this.

    Isaiah 44:16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, “Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.” From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, “Save me; you are my god.”

    4) Using the Bible as a reference doesn’t change your view of swinging. So far, that is true.

    5) What proof do I have that God did anything? You believe the Bible was written 400 years after events, are full of stories not facts, and Job’s suffering is a man made story.

    The Bible is not man-made story. Consider the following.

    Moses, Pharaoh and the Plagues–easy to disprove if false. Can you?

    Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar’s written proclamations to all the peoples of every nation and language in the world.

    First regarding his three friends who went into the fiery furnace rather than bow to the king.

    Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar said, “Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants! They trusted in him and defied the king’s command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own God. Therefore I decree that the people of any nation or language who say anything against the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego be cut into pieces and their houses be turned into piles of rubble, for no other god can save in this way.” Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the province of Babylon.

    King Nebuchadnezzar, To the peoples, nations and men of every language, who live in all the world: May you prosper greatly! It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed for me. How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an eternal kingdom; his dominion endures from generation to generation.

    Were those written declarations that went out into all the tongues and nations of the entire world he ruled at that time fact or story? Easy to disprove if false because so highly visible! Can you? And King Nebuchadnezzar testified that God did real and mighty things. You can disagree, but it is your word against his. And the three Hebrews in the fiery furnace? It was a pretty viewed execution by the satraps. Story? Easy to disprove. Seen any documents from Nebuchadnezzar’s contemporaries denying it, especially the satraps?

    Daniel in Belteshazzar’s kingdom. Daniel 5:29 “Then at Belshazzar’s command, Daniel was clothed in purple, a gold chain was placed around his neck, and he was proclaimed the third highest ruler in the kingdom.” Fact or story?

    Daniel and Darius’ kingdom.

    Daniel 6:1 “It pleased Darius to appoint 120 satraps to rule throughout the kingdom, 2 with three administrators over them, one of whom was Daniel.”
    Daniel 6:24 “At the king’s command, the men who had falsely accused Daniel were brought in and thrown into the lions’ den, along with their wives and children. And before they reached the floor of the den, the lions overpowered them and crushed all their bones. Then King Darius wrote to all the peoples, nations and men of every language throughout the land: ‘May you prosper greatly! I issue a decree that in every part of my kingdom people must fear and reverence the God of Daniel. For he is the living God and he endures forever; his kingdom will not be destroyed, his dominion will never end. He rescues and he saves; he performs signs and wonders in the heavens and on the earth. He has rescued Daniel from the power of the lions.’ So Daniel prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus the Persian.”

    Pretty visible. He wrote to every nation and language. He confirmed Daniel was saved from the lions. Why make up stories so easy disprove, written down in every language on earth at the time under his domain. Fact or not? And this king also says God is a living God and performs signs and wonders. That’s two kings so far that say God did something.

    Ezra and Cyrus’ kingdom.

    2 Chronicles 36:22 “In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing: ‘This is what Cyrus king of Persia says: “The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of his people among you–may the LORD his God be with him, and let him go up…. 6:11 Furthermore, I decree that if anyone changes this edict, a beam is to be pulled from his house and he is to be lifted up and impaled on it. And for this crime his house is to be made a pile of rubble. May God, who has caused his Name to dwell there, overthrow any king or people who lifts a hand to change this decree or to destroy this temple in Jerusalem. I Darius have decreed it. Let it be carried out with diligence.” ‘ ”

    He put it in writing, and sent it to all the kingdoms. He believed in this God, and says he was appointed to see to it that the temple was rebuilt. Another king, another written decree, to all nations. Not the sort of thing you tell stories about if you are trying to make them up. Fact or story?

    Esther and Mordecai and evil Haman and King Xerxes’ kingdom.
    Esther 8:7 King Xerxes replied to Queen Esther and to Mordecai the Jew, “Because Haman attacked the Jews, I have given his estate to Esther, and they have hanged him on the gallows. 8 Now write another decree in the king’s name in behalf of the Jews as seems best to you, and seal it with the king’s signet ring–for no document written in the king’s name and sealed with his ring can be revoked.” At once the royal secretaries were summoned–on the twenty-third day of the third month, the month of Sivan. They wrote out all Mordecai’s orders to the Jews, and to the satraps, governors and nobles of the 127 provinces stretching from India to Cush. These orders were written in the script of each province and the language of each people and also to the Jews in their own script and language. Mordecai wrote in the name of King Xerxes, sealed the dispatches with the king’s signet ring, and sent them by mounted couriers, who rode fast horses especially bred for the king. The king’s edict granted the Jews in every city the right to assemble and protect themselves; to destroy, kill and annihilate any armed force of any nationality or province that might attack them and their women and children; and to plunder the property of their enemies. 12 The day appointed for the Jews to do this in all the provinces of King Xerxes was the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, the month of Adar. 13 A copy of the text of the edict was to be issued as law in every province and made known to the people of every nationality so that the Jews would be ready on that day to avenge themselves on their enemies. The couriers, riding the royal horses, raced out, spurred on by the king’s command. And the edict was also issued in the citadel of Susa. Mordecai left the king’s presence wearing royal garments of blue and white, a large crown of gold and a purple robe of fine linen… Mordecai the Jew was second in rank to King Xerxes, preeminent among the Jews, and held in high esteem by his many fellow Jews, because he worked for the good of his people and spoke up for the welfare of all the Jews.”

    Fact or story? A little to specific about the month and day and the whole signet thing too. Easy to disprove, can you? This is the beginning of the festival of Purim celebrated this day. Story or fact?

    And the stories go on. You see, God placed his people in some of the very most highly visible places in some of the most notable kingdoms of men, and caused some of these most known Kings to write words praising his mighty acts and declaring them to generations to come, you and I included. What was it these people saw that so profoundly influenced them to state their believe in God and his acts to the whole known world? Whatever it was, it sure affected them. And the stories they confirm in their letters support at least those stories. It starts to at least raise the possibility that not all the stories in the bible are baseless. We can at least now say, “Well, okay I can accept this one and that one.” That’s a start. It’s okay to accept facts. And to these men, the facts of God were the acts of God, and by them, they believed

    6) You are most likely going to be the religion of the country you are in. (I’ll answer next time).

    7) All the different sects in Christianity and people’s claim that Jesus is the only way. (I’ll answer next time).

    Why is my level of sexual acceptance the right one? Is there right and wrong on sexual acceptance.

    If you say there is no right and wrong, I have no basis in your eyes to make a judgement that extends to you. But if there is a right and wrong that applies to all, then we can both look at it and judge each other by it. We must be careful we are talking about right and wrong, not just mere variations. I know you would agree with that last part. But I do not think you would agree with the first part. At least, not yet. I believe there is a right and wrong and share my views based on that. I believe you also hold to a right or wrong. You question why I think my view extends to others. Good question. In the end, you are free to accept or reject, or to challenge why I think I am right and another is wrong. You did that. I don’t know if I have time in this round to answer that. Maybe another round. Maybe ask it differently to help me?

    9) Thanks for the complement about not gloating that people will suffer as payback for doing things I do not agree with.

    10) This discussion coming to an end. (Is it?)

    To tie this back to the topic, people don’t think the Bible is a valid guide on the issue of swinging or adultery. Part of the reason is that they don’t believe there is a God, nor that the Bible is real. I guess that beneath that, they don’t really believe that the Bible’s admonitions in regards to sexuality, if followed, are actually better for us. To the extent any of this helps open the door to considering that maybe there is something to this, that is good.

    And to you as well a thank you, because beneath the many objections you bring up, you are interested enough (serious about your questions) to continue to ask them, not just a slam and run. That is an agreeable way to be as well.

    In any event, we have freely exercised an American privilege to communicate through a forum that the moderators have graciously allowed to extend as far as it has.

    Talk to you later. Thanks for the rapport.

    Bill N.

28. John on March 20th, 2007 1:52 pm

    I don’t want to be too much of a statistics geek here, but it is what I do for a living (and I am, with my wife, an active “swinger”). But you and all but maybe one of of the follow-up posters missed the whole point: This is not a random sample of a representative population. You cannot derive any conclusions about society as-a-whole from these “poll” results (it’s not technically a poll, but that’s another discussion).

    At most, you can say it represents the distribution of opinions among your readers.

    You are hardly the first people to investigate how widespread “swinging” is in the United States. The most scientific estimates I have seen show that between 1 and 2% of married or committed couple are involved at any given time, with something around 10-12% having tried it at some point in the relationship (that’s a percent of relationships, not a percent of people). Interestingly, these rates have held fairly steady since the late 60s (”free love”), with a temporary dip in the late 80s. (aids crisis).

29. Richard on March 21st, 2007 1:07 am

    It’s not for everyone, but I am not going to judge. I guess you could say I was a “victim” of polyamory. After 13 years of marriage, I found out that my wife had been having a sexual relationship with her best friend (female) for about a year and a half. I was shocked, but not completely surprised. So many life changes had just occurred, and in retrospect I realize my response was due to fear of losing the only constant in my life at the time…our relationship. She asked me to join them now that I knew about their relationship (it was a fantasy of hers). I said yes, as I was attracted to our female friend. We had several sexual engagements over the next several weeks, and many conversations as well. My wife told me she had learned of polyamorous relationships and we talked about that. She assured me I was the primary in her life, and she would do anything to preserve that. However, as time went on their relationship intensified and was gradually squeezed out of everything. No more sex, no more conversations, and then she was telling me there were no primaries in our relationship…she loved both of us equally. I began to feel that I was being replaced, or something of that nature. I know that my insecurities were playing a part in this, but I also know that I came clean after finding out about their relationship (and then participating in sex with the two of them). By “came clean” I mean I felt that we were finally able to discuss sex in a clear and honest manner…finally able to express my wants and desires without shame or embarassment. This was huge for me, but at this turning point in my life is when things went horribly wrong. All of a sudden I’m getting squeezed out. There’s no sexual activity for me. The two of them continue to have sex with each other, and keep it secret (what happened to openness and honest?). I felt burned by the whole thing. I trusted myself with both of them (I’m not one to take sex lightly…I know that it is so much better when you have sex with someone you love and trust. I trusted both of them and I was really beginning to feel a deep connection. I really felt at one point this was a real possibility that would benefit all three of us in many ways).

    All that said, much has changed. We are separated, but living in the same town (it helps because we have kids). Our friend is still around, and I don’t know if they are still sexually involved. They are not in an exclusive relationship, per se, but they are still very close.

    I feel very hurt by the whole thing. The one person I trusted the most in my life turned her back on me at my most vulnerable moment. I am trying to recover, but it’s hard. There are many other factors involved as well, but this entry would be a mile long.

    My advice, though, to all who have been participating in this discussion is to not judge others. What is not right for you may be just the right thing for someone else. Everyone is at a different place in life and we can’t expect everyone to fall inline with our beliefs. Thanks for your time…

30. Poll: 51% are active non-monogamists or willing to try it!? « Open Relationships - The Poly Coach! on March 28th, 2007 11:04 pm

    […] So when I read this article about a poll taken at http://www.askdanandjennifer.com I was a bit surprised at the numbers they posted. Excerpt: “What was really interesting is that 51% of the people polled were either active in the swinging lifestyle or willing to try it while only 36% were strongly against it” […]

31. TerryG on April 9th, 2007 6:16 am

    I agree these numbers are really quite mind boggling. Who would have thought? Its not for me.

32. Jonathan on April 9th, 2007 11:26 am

    >I said…

    You wrote that God’s view is “Do not covet thy neighbors wife unless they are in an open marriage.”

    Bill said…
    >>>You missed one of the Ten Commandments: Exodus 20:14 “You shall not commit adultery.” Webster defines adultery as “Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband.”>>>

    Hi Bill,

    The Bible contains a few examples of men marrying more than one person. Clearly the commandment to not commit adultery does not apply to all instances. Just as thou shalt not kill does not apply when christians are at war or killing in self defense. So you see Bill, the commandments are too vague and always have been. Which is why we have a more complex code of laws now compared to when the Bible was written. I could name lots of examples of laws in the Bible that are no longer followed. You are picking and choosing which laws I and others should follow based on your whims, not Gods. Shame on you for pretending to know what Gods laws are and judging me.

    Jonathan

33. Bill N. on April 9th, 2007 4:28 pm

    Jonathon,

    The commandment to not commit adultery does apply in all instances. The bible contains a record of imperfect men. They do not redefine God’s Ten Commandments, which have never been vague but rather explicit:

    “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

    You said lots of Bible laws are not followed. I said as much myself, and explained the ones that were not followed and why–the difference between the ceremonial laws, civil laws and laws that reflect the character of God.

    Jesus himself mentioned that Moses permitted divorce because of their hardhearts. That doesn’t mean God approves of it.

    Matthew 19:7

    “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

    8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

    Polygamy being written about in the Bible is not condoning it, no more than the civil law of allowing divorces due to the hardness of men’s hearts somehow changes the commandment regarding adultery. Jesus affirmed it, not denied it.

    I am not picking and choosing anything. I am saying what the Bible means and the verses I share back that up.

    So, regarding your “shame on you for pretending to know what Gods laws are and judging me”. I never judged you, but I did judge your words. For judging your words, I receive no shame. If you got an error on a math problem, is that the kind of “judging” a math teacher should receive a “shame on you” for pointing out? No, I don’t receive any shame. We are just discussing what we see the Bible to mean. I think you are in error on your understanding. That’s civil discourse last time I checked.

    According to the Bible’s definition, as reiterated by Jesus, what many people are doing is called “adultery” and is a violation of the 10th commandment. You can say, “I don’t go by the Bible”. That’s your choice. If you say it doesn’t say what it says, I take issue.

    Then you said I pretend to know God’s laws. Hmmm… So if I teach someone how to multiply and divide, do I pretend to be a mathematician? Not at all. I know the math, therefore I can comment on it. In the same way, I don’t pretend to know God’s laws. I read them. I read what Jesus said and I shared that. Is that pretending? No pretending is needed, we are not discussing what we do not see, but what we clear see, the Bible.

    While it is convenient to try to d