This will be my last post. Let me address all you said and sign off.

The great thing about your last post is that you point out what I wasn’t getting: that you view the definition of adultery as being the sticking point.. Thanks for clarifying that. You said, “1] It is not the true meaning of either the Greek or the Hebrew word; 2] It does not meet the test of agreement with Biblical examples.” You gave plenty of examples. The 7th commandment being proximate in the list to “theft” seemed weak. I mean, it was right after murder, okay? You could say 6-10 were in descending order: murder, adultery, steal, lie, covet. And yes, you can commit spiritual adultery, which God also forbid when he said, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” the first commandment (no plural gods).

Your main point was adultery was wrong if it was a property rights violation and then only wrong if the right to the property right was claimed. You rightly point out many good examples of sex outside of marriage (by married people) that were not punished. However, many things were still wrong, even if left unpunished. We must still determine if lack of punishment alone is sufficient to say God condoned it.

For instance, God works with imperfect people. If merely having any sin in our life is sufficient cause for God to reject us altogether, no person could know God. But King David, though he committed murder and adultery, was left as a King though the penalty for what he did should have been death. Somehow, in ways I don’t fully understand, God continued to involve himself with mankind while he was yet sinful. For instance, about Moses allowing divorce in the Old Testament (Matthew 19.8-9) Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.” Jesus rejects the idea that a lack of punishment is an acceptance of it by God, specific to adultery. He rejects that Moses’ allowance of it means God endorses or excuses it.

John the Baptist in the New Testament in Jesus’ time also spoke out against King Herod’s illicit relationship that no one was punishing. Matthew 14:3-5 “Now Herod had arrested John and bound him and put him in prison because of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, for John had been saying to him: ‘It is not lawful for you to have her.’ Herod wanted to kill John, but he was afraid of the people, because they considered him a prophet.”

Old or New Testament folk not following the standard or not punishing each other is not the best sign of whether it is pleasing to God, as Jesus’ own words and John the Baptist’s also indicate.

The marital relationship is referred to by Jesus and in Genesis (the first book of the Bible) as a “one flesh” relationship, where the two become one. In the New Testament it says, 1 Corinthians 6:16 “Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, ‘The two will become one flesh.’” The Old Testament says, Leviticus 19:29 ” `Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.” In another place it warns daughters not to make themselves into prostitutes. This shows that prostitution by Jacob or any other was still a sin in God’s eyes. So that should explain at least part of what you brought up, though such a small part.

The New Testament goes on, 1 Timothy 3:2, “Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife”. That is the standard from Genesis onward, clarified by Jesus and maintained by the Apostles.

However, I’ve left unanswered many issues you raise, such as Abraham and his maidservant, Jacob with his two wives. As I read it, they sinned against God, yet God continued to work with them in spite of their sin. It was intended from the beginning, as Jesus said, that a person is to have only one single “one-flesh” relationship–spiritually with God and physically with the opposite sex. What grace of God I observe, then, that he blessed both Jacob’s wives with children when they prayed to him–as great a mercy as God continually to bless David in times of need though did wrong at times, or as great a mercy as Jesus choosing to use Peter to build his church though Peter abandoned him before Christ was crucified. Not condoning what they did, but blessing in spite of it. Amazing. Simply amazing.

To me, Jesus’ own words of Moses allowing divorce but it not being God’s intended way testifies to his purposeful forbearance, not his acceptance. Still, this does not directly address the obligation of a brother of a deceased man (who was married yet died childless) to continue his brother’s line.

Yet, lest we go further, I must leave this line of thought. So let me do a little housekeeping and then sign off this posting in a permanent way:

1. It’s probably not right to quote the verse about me being the weaker brother because you make yourself out to be the stronger brother–by saying it out loud that’s probably a slam against me, don’t you think?

2. You said I am closed minded more than once. Everyone puts limits on what they read based on their judgement. When you say something the Bible seems to readily refute in my mind, I feel I rightly respond “why look further?” However, if you raise a point I see the Bible doesn’t refute, it’s time to examine it deeply, to read what I can read and see what I learn–that’s open mind you speak of. So it’s not a closed mind, it’s a judgement on whether you’ve made a point the Bible doesn’t refute. So far, I didn’t see it. The one that is interesting you wrote was about the brother-in-law having to fulfill a duty to his deceased brother’s widow if she was childless. Culture or law?–good question to resolve.

3. Calling me a Pharisee was interesting, especially since you say neither the weak nor the strong should judge each other. I know however the Apostle said, 1 Corinthians 5:12 “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?” So, maybe that’s your reason. Still, interesting you chose to do so.

4. You said I accused you of twisting and generalizing the scriptures. I regret my choice of words. Apologies. I should better have phrased it, “I read the words differently and come to a different conclusion and here’s why.” Or, “The scriptures don’t allow that viewpoint as I read it, based on these quotes.” Anything beyond that is kind of insulting. Would you please forgive the arrogance displayed on my part?

5. Yes, I’ve read books other than the Bible, such as the Koran, Communist Manifesto, other religions, sects, books about the Bible, used English / Hebrew / Greek dictionaries (Strongs), but no formal training in Greek or Hebrew. I didn’t note if you had any.

6. You asked me if I really want to continue this debate here in this forum. Not really. I think enough points have been made. How would you like to close this out? Maybe you say a paragraph and I say one? It would be more fair for me to let you have the last word. So here goes my sign off: (Take it easy on me in return, knowing I won’t reply in return. Answer whatever questions you want and clarify and etc., and then give your farewell paragraph as well.) Here goes:

Gary, thanks for being a person who engaged me on what the Bible says by actually referring to the Bible and quoting it. We still have differences of opinion and may retain them for a long time, but I feel that the readers have seen enough to form at least some initial judgements and that suffices. Best to you. Thanks readers and hosts for allowing this to come to a conclusion.

Mind if I sign off with a famous often quoted Jewish blessing? “The Lord bless you and keep you; the Lord make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you; the Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace.” (Numbers 6:24-26)

Bill N.

You said

“Sidestepping? I hope I’ve addressed you head on above. Now, address me head-on below.
So, you know the Bible. Okay then: Is adultery ok?”

Wow, have you even been reading my posts? Do you really believe that I am going to try to convince you that it is ok to violate one of the ten commandments? Let me be perfectly clear. Adultery is ALWAYS wrong, it has ALWAYS been wrong, and it will ALWAYS be wrong. This is simply a truth of divine scripture and I will never twist, pervert, or discredit scripture to suit my own desires. What I will do is seek to study the Word with honesty and integrity in a search for the Truth as God intended it. I am sad to say, this appears to be something you are unwilling to do.

In your zeal to challenge me you have totally missed the point of my posts. I do not disagree with scripture, only your interpretation of it. Taking an absolute truth, that being that adultery is wrong, and attempting to attach your opinion to it and pass it off as absolute truth as well, that being that sex outside of marriage is the definition of adultery, may fool the simple minded but it will not fool any serious bible scholar.

You said, “Prove it from the Bible, not from side books. Lots of book writers (some you mentioned) can overlay their own meaning, but let the readers read the actually words and decide for themselves. That’s what I’m about. ”

So you never read devotionals or other inspirational books to gain insight into scripture? I find this hard to believe. In fact, unless you are a true expert in Greek, Hebrew, and the historical settings, cultures, and context of the scriptures, then your refusal to seek the counsel of those who are speaks of your incredible ignorence. Still, I will give you a very brief and incomplete answer to your challenge to “prove it from scripture” with a simple clarification. As I have already indicated, I will not prove adultery is ok, rather will prove that your definition of it is incorrect.

Adultery has traditionally been defined as “sex
with someone other than our marital mate.” This definition of “adultery” is false for two reasons:
1] It is not the true meaning of either the Greek or the
Hebrew word;
2] It does not meet the test of agreement with Biblical
examples.

Consider the following,

In the OT system a slave woman who has sex with a man other than her master is not considered an adulteress. She and her lover are not to be killed, “because she has not been emancipated,” (Lev.19:20-22). The law demands “damages” instead. The sexual act itself was not “defiling,” otherwise there could not have been such
leniency on God’s part. The law in this case gives the reason for leniency: she is a slave, not a wife. Thus “adultery” can be committed only with, and by a woman who is free to “rebel” against her husband. It is a property rights matter. In Scripture adultery is primarily an offense against property. It is theft – whether actual or intended – of another’s property.

The 7th Commandment, prohibiting adultery, is in proximity to that of theft, (Ex. 20:14,15). One is forbidden to covet his neighbor’s house or wife or servant or ox or ass or other property, (Ex. 20:17).
Adultery refers to a man taking, or desiring to take, a married woman from her husband. This concept of adultery is strange to the Western world but only because we have adopted concepts that suit our own cultural setting and that flow from our polluted doctrinal inheritance. We understand adultery to be sexual activity outside the marriage by either spouse. But OT teaching proves that a woman who was another man’s property must not violate his property rights, yet the same man could have sex with a single
woman, a prostitute, another wife, a concubine, a slave, a divorced woman or a widow, without committing adultery. This fact proves beyond doubt that the sex act alone does not breach marital status and is not adultery.

Adultery is not merely a sexual act. As we read from Scripture Israel committed “adultery” against God numerous times yet all of us understand that God and Israel never had sex, nor did “Israel” as a nation have sex with other nations. Adultery is a matter of
rebelling against one’s spouse then putting trust in, depending on, transferring one’s affections to another mate. By aligning herself with foreign nations and taking their gods for herself Israel committed adultery against God who was her true Husband. She
left God for another mate. Many things constitute adultery other than a sex act. And a sex act itself is not adulterous unless it violates the claim of exclusive ownership by one’s spouse. In other words, if exclusive rights to a wife’s sexual favors is not claimed by a husband then if his wife has sex with another man she has not thereby committed adultery. There is no “rebellion” in her act and she has in no way been “unfaithful” to her commitment to her husband. She has not “broken the bands” of her marriage. If her faithfulness to her marital commitment is not injured, the sex act has no moral
repercussions and it is not “adultery.”

If this is almost too outlandish to accept, put yourself again in the OT setting and think of a righteous man like Jacob. He married Leah first, then Rachel. Did he commit adultery with Rachel? Or was it OK just because they were both married to him? Well, then
consider Judah’s encounter with his daughter-in-law Tamar (Gen.38). He thought she was a prostitute and paid to have sex with her. But even though adultery was a serious crime he was not accused
of adultery. Instead, when the affair was discovered he suffered nothing more than a mild embarrassment at not having fulfilled his promise to her. Maybe Abraham will help us again. He was
married to barren Sarah. In order to have children she could claim as her own, Sarah insisted that Abraham copulate with Hagar, Sarah’s maid. Abraham did so, thus having sex with someone other
than his wife. But Abraham did not commit adultery. Nor did he commit any sort of sexual sin. Or how about all the others who had wives yet without a second thought had sex with their wive’s “handmaidens,” with concubines, with slaves and with prostitutes. All of this occurred under a law that mandated the death penalty for both the man and woman caught in adultery. The sexual
proclivity of men like David, Solomon, Gideon and others was public knowledge. If having sex with so many women to whom they were not married was “adultery” why were none of those men ever accused? Why were none of them ever punished? The truth stares us right in the face doesn’t it? In a culture that knew exactly what adultery is and is not, and took severe measures to do away with adultery, having sex with people other than one’s mate was a
common occurrence, yet was never treated as adultery. Indeed it was never treated as even unusual. Think about it! Even godly men going in to prostitutes was not thought to be anything worth
fretting about.

I have borrowed from some of the research of Darwin Chandler to respond to your challenge since you refuse to read it on your own. This is unfortunate but not surprising. I have no false hope of getting you to honestly consider that the truth of scripture might be beyond your willingness to accept it. Indeed, I accept your right to your beliefs as the “weaker brother”. However, I will not let your conscience dictate and bind the blessings allowed me by God. Romans 14:22.

Do you really want to continue this debate in a forum that by its very nature limits the very possibility of serious study of scripture? You have accused me of twisting and generalizing the scriptures. Yet you refuse to even explore my sincerely held beliefs that my interpretation represents the heart of God and yours represent the heart of the biblical pharisee. Jesus did not think to highly of the pharisees He encountered. And frankly, the more I encounter modern day pharisees who twist and pervert the scriptures to place Christians in bondage of man made traditions, the more I understand why His words towards them were so harsh.

Please, if you are unwilling to at least search for truth, than at least have the decency stop judging those of us who understand our freedoms differently than you do. According to Romans 14:1-4 & 10-13, neither the weak nor the strong are allowed to judge each other.

Take Care
Gary

Why am I here? I just happened across this site and like you and others wanted to put in my two cents. Later, I saw the Bible being wrenched out of context to say things it doesn’t. Why does it matter why I am here any more than why you or any other person took the time to comment? Does that change what the Bible said or doesn’t say?

Sidestepping? I hope I’ve addressed you head on above. Now, address me head-on below.

So, you know the Bible. Okay then: Is adultery ok?

1. The Ten Commandments speak against it (Exodus 20:14) “You shall not commit adultery”.
2. Jesus spoke against it and defined it (Matthew 5:27-28) “You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
3. After Jesus the Apostle Paul spoke against it (Romans 13:9-10) “The commandments, ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not covet,’ and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”

You said the law of love is what rules. Here, I quote the Bible to challenge your point that the law of law allows adultery. Here in Romans, the law of love explicitly means do not commit adultery. So, is adultery okay, according to the Bible?

Gary, I don’t want to disparage you. But you can’t use the Bible to prove that adultery is right because it is explicit and doesn’t allow it. Neither does the law of love allow it. It doesn’t allow for married people to swing. You can’t do it with the text. The Bible is clear. Head on back to me, okay: Does the Bible support what I say or not–that God opposes married people swinging. Let me know.

Prove it from the Bible, not from side books. Lots of book writers (some you mentioned) can overlay their own meaning, but let the readers read the actually words and decide for themselves. That’s what I’m about.

And if you agree the Bible opposes married people “swinging” (committing adultery), I have nothing further to write. And if you have nothing further to write or just don’t want to reply, I respect that. I’ll drop out as well.

I just won’t let grand sweeping generalizations go unchallenged. The Bible is clear. Prove from the Bible it is otherwise. It’s words do not allow it.

Bill N.

No, actually it doesn’t. I made a very clear point that it is possible to disagree with your interpretation of scripture and you totally sidestepped that and still maintain that your study is superior to mine and your version of truth represents God’s view and mine does not. There is no possibility of honest discussion with someone whose mind is so closed. I do not believe the average Dan and Jennifer reader is interested in you and I going through a long debate of scriptural interpretations. Rather I asked a very honest question about your motives for hanging out on a website such as this where the views and purpose is so totally contrary to your views. I believe you are a pharisee, and I believe you are harming the cause of Christ with your mis-representation of scripture. If you really want to study the issue have the courage to read the book I recommended to you in my last post. Do it in private. Evaluate the research for yourself. The issue is too complex for a setting such as this and your mind is closed anyway so there is no point in wasting space here for a debate.

I stand by my assertion that the modern church has distorted the meaning of many terms like sexual immorality, fornication, adultery, etc. An honest study of these terms and scriptures, as well as an evaluation of God’s handling of sexuality throughout the whole of scripture, reveals a truth, that being that God is not nearly so hung up on the issue of sex as the church is. The law of love governs everything that could be considered sinful in the life of anyone, including sex. There is no scriptural basis for believing your narrow and legalistic interpretation of what is sinful is the correct one. All of your assumpions are based on understandings you have been taught. I am an educated man, and I believe in searching for absolute truth in everything. The Bible is so often abused that it has become a mockery to much of the world. This is sad, because I believe it represents absolute truth. But the truth within cannot be found by simply accepting the interpretation of others, even a pastor or deacon or other church leader.

If you are sincerely wanting to correct what you believe to be mis-representations of scripture, then at least be honest enough in your effort to understand the position which you seek to correct. Take an honest look at the book called “Divine Sex”. Do an online search and I think you will find a location where you can obtain an electronic copy for free. As I said, I do not agree with everything in this book, but the research and presentation of scripture is excellent.

Bill I have no animosity towards you. I know you sincerely believe what you say. But that does not make you right. Sincerity is not the test of truth. The world is full of sincere radicals who believe in all sorts of evils. Do not let yourself be counted among them by closing your mind.

Take Care,
Gary

People are making the Bible out to say things it does not, leading people to possibly believe the Bible justifies and approves what they do. I stepped in to challenge people to substantiate from the Bible what they are saying, as a means to confront the mistruth. So far, no one is willing to discuss the Bible verses themselves–rather to ignore the written words and say it ‘s all still ok. That is their choice. I just didn’t think it was right or helpful to claim the Bible approves all those things.

People are free to disregard the Bible, to not care about it at all, to believe it is irrelevant. Anything wrong with challenging someone to back up their claims about what the Bible says? How else do you confront error if not to go to the sources cited and ask, “Where do you get that”.

Does that answer your question?

I have a couple of questions for you.

1. Why are you here? This is not meant to be flip or disrespectful but I can’t help but wonder. If you are trying to save the lost souls who disagree with you then you might be a bit more brief as I guarentee that those who have no use for Christianity tuned you out the moment you went past the first few paragraphs. If it is curiosity that brings you here, it kind of makes your post a bit disengenuous.

2. Do you recognize that it is possible to disagree with the interpretation of scripture and still be genuine in sincerity and also be a committed Christian? This question is paramount to everything you stated in your post. I know you have complete certainty and sincerity in your interpretation of the scriptures you quoted, but you statements still represent your interpretation of those verses. I at one point shared all those same beliefs and taught and preached them as well. I still teach adults in a conservative church, but with regards to the true freedom of believers I remain silent with respect to the principle of the weaker brother.

I will not take you through a long defense of my beliefs. I am simply trying to get you to open your mind to sincere beliefs which might challenge and stretch you. Remember, Jesus was totally rejected by the church because He challenged strongly and sincerely held beliefs that were sinply wrong. A study of church history will reveal a rather poor track record with regards to the interpretation of scripture and commonly held “truths” have been abandoned many times in the face of overwhelming evidence. My belief is that these shifts in church opinion have not called the authenticity of scripture into question, rather they have simply pointed out the ignorence of the church and its lack of ability to rightly divide the Word of God at times.

Save me the scriptures that you believe make your beliefs the correct ones…you are still limited by your own understanding, as are we all. My reason for responding to you is to ask you to truthfully study the position of many genuine “Christians” who believe they/we have found the truth of Freedom. (No, I do not believe it is for sex) However, for a decent Biblical study on sexuality read the book by Darwin Chandler, Divine Sex, and be open to legitimate challenges to your beliefs. To only read and study those whose position mirrors our own is not an honest way to search for truth. I searched for and studied everything I could get my hands on from all perspectives, and have been forced to question many of my beliefs. I do not agree with all Mr. Chandler says, but his biblical research is very well done. Do not fear reading opposing opinions. That would be a bit like fearing science for fear it will prove God is a myth.

Again I ask you a simple question…why are you here?

Take Care,
Gary

When my wife is very horny she talks about wanting to be with another woman. She says she wants me to be there too. Having both the other woman and me touching her, etc. She loves “big love” (HBO) and talks about having a sister wife (we know, we know, that is NOT swinging, but could be considered poly-somthing, even if wives are not sexaual together).

Feel free to email me or post (with your experiences).

For instance, you said, “It is amazing how so many posters claim to know and understand what the Bible says and tells us when they have not clue as to the original meaning of the words used by the original writers meant and in the context of that day.” Please tell us how many years of Hebrew and Greek you had at what university, and what your grades were in those courses.

You said, “…adultery was taking something that was not yours and you didn’t have permission to take. ” Jesus said in the Bible, Luke 16:18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” And he also said, Matthew 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” You said it was “taking something that was not yours”. You are in error and spouting foolishness while claiming to be an authority. You have no right to disparage the Bible based statements of others without facts yourself.

You said, “God told David that he would have given him any woman in Israel if only David had asked.” Please give the verse reference and quote for that. I do see this statement, 2 Samuel 12:7 “I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.” One might suggest it is possible that it means what you said, but it is not certain that it means so. You stretch the point and infer things you cannot sustain.

You said, “Each of the posters who claim knowledge that the Bible is against Polyamory, Swinging, sexual activity that you don’t agree with would do well to have your knowledge straight before you attempt to persuade others that you’re correct.” You judge others, do you judge yourself?.

You said, “If you keep your heads in the sand of ignorance you will continue to say ideas that are laughable to those who really understand what the Bible says.” I’m not laughing at your ideas but they are patently false and are from the sands of ignorance you so easily denounce..

You said, “I’m not going to take any more time to shake some up to get in and study but it would be a good idea.” You would do well to follow your own advice.

Let’s close with some facts from the source: 1Corinthians 6:9 “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.”

The facts are these: There is such a thing as sexual immorality. Prostitution is wrong. Homosexuality is wrong. And many who came to become Christians were some of these very things at one time. So being involved in these is not the end of the line with God. God, who is able to make all things new, including our very souls, purified many such of those who would come to him, giving them new desires in their heart and forgiving all these sins.

Jesus very clearly said, John 9:41 “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.” You claim you see clearly but do not acknowledge Jesus own words on the meaning of adultery and the sinfulness of it and are leading others in error to believe as you do which is other than what Jesus himself said.

Even now though, he is willing to forgive if you are willing to repent and turn to him to be made new, to be cleansed of your desires and be restored to him. As it says in the Bible, Ezekiel 33:10 “Son of man, say to the house of Israel, `This is what you are saying: “Our offenses and sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of them. How then can we live?” ‘ 11 Say to them, `As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’”

The Bible says, Matthew 15:14 “If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit.” You claim to see but you do not. You lead others into your error by confidently asserting what is not true.

Paul the Apostle wrote: 1Corinthians 5:9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people– 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside.” You are free to say, “I could care less about what the Bible says”, and no one can argue with your freedom to do so. But I, and many with me, would take issue with misrepresenting the Bible to others. That is a public act that is harmful to the hearers should they desire to live by its meaning and you make it to say things it does not.

If you wish to help others know what the Bible says, let’s hear it. If you have some points to make, maybe many would like to hear them and discuss them on the merits. Give us the places where we may find these things in the Bible. Please take the time to quote them so that we may know and understand and verify what you are saying. There are many things in the Bible that no doubt would offend you or cause you difficulty. But those are not part of this discussion. What it says about adultery and sexuality outside of marriage is under discussion.

1Timothy 3:1 “If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife…” 1Timothy 3:12 “A deacon must be the husband of but one wife…” TItus 1:6 “An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife…”

If you want to lead others into a fuller knowledge of the Bible online or otherwise–as an elder, deacon, overseer or teacher of the Word of God–would you consider these qualifications as something you personally can endorse and encourage in others as a good model to follow?

Paul the Apostle also wrote, 1Corinthians 7:8 “Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.” What did he say? Did he say that it is better to have consensual sex outside of marriage? No, not at all. Clearly this indicates that there is only one way for a person to have sex, and that is inside a marital relationship. He could have said otherwise, but when face with the question, “Then why did God give me all these desires?” the answer would be, that they might find their fulfillment in a marital relationship, a lifelong commitment to one and only one other person.

As Jesus said, Matthew 19:3 “Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?” 4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator `made them male and female,’ 5 and said, `For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ ? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”

Best wishes to you Danny, I hope this helps you and others understand more clearly what the Bible truly says about swinging, adultery and polyamory. It’s hard to be brief and defend against the many statements you made and back them up with facts, but I hope this works for you and others who also wish to understand more.

I always figure that if something is “right” for you, the moment of discovery will not be awkward or difficult to talk about with others.

Would swinging be easy to explain to your kids should they find out? Would you mind if they had multiple sex partners?

How about your parents?

Your peers?

Your boss?

Maybe you are okay with this. If so, then I guess “The Lifestyle” is right for you. If you are not, then some little part of you is telling you “this is wrong”.

Maybe you should listen.

You also put quite a positive spin on the numbers. Here’s another perfectly legitimate way to interpret your results:

(1) Only 16 percent of your readers are actively involved in sexually non-monogamous lifestyles. This is a fairly small minority.
(2) The great majority, 84 percent, are not active in sexually non-monogamous lifestyles.
(3) Nearly half of your readers, 49 percent, said they would not even consider a sexually non-monogamous lifestyle (20 percent said monogamy is the only way to go; 16 percent said they were strong against non-monogamy; 13 percent said non-monogamy was not for them).

Therefore, one may conclude a fairly small minority (16%) of your readers ever get actively involved in sexually non-monogamous lifestyles, and while a moderate number (35%) of readers may consider such a lifestyle in the future, about half (49%) would never consider engaging in such a lifestyle. Given that your readers probably show more interest in sexual non-monogamy than the average population, I’d say swinging and polyamory are not in.

That person just put themselves the bin of the people they disdain. They said that
“anyone who says their beliefs are correct and others are wrong are just arrogant and
self-righteous.” If that is true, the person who wrote that email making those
claims believing them to be right is also arrogant and self-righteous.

That person said “Christians continually judge and ridicule others in spite of the
fact that the bible says not too.” This person doesn’t understand the difference
between judgement and judgement. We judge that someone is wrong to murder someone. We
judge that our children have done a poor job in school work. We judge that a person is a
sloth at work and we don’t like it and think it is terrible. That is not wrong judgement.
Saying, “You are going to hell and you are worse than me and I am better than
you,” that is judgement of the kind Christians are not to make. Christians are no
better than others on their own. It is God’s presence in their life helping to change
them to be like him that is their only goodness, and for that they can claim no pride
because it was not because of righteous things any one of them did, but only by the grace
of God that he was willing to take and remake them just as they are into something they
might prefer to be.

That person also said “they use the Bible as their only ‘proof’ when there is no
proof that the Bible is true.” And yet that person offers their opinion about what
is arrogant and self-righteous with nothing other than “cause I think so.” Raw
opinion.

If you are going to judge judger’s and being judgemental, and judge them for condemning
certain behaviors, consider you have become like the people you supposedly loathe. How
does that work? Sounds like a double standard. Measure yourself by the standard you use
to measure others by. Don’t criticise others for failing to do what you are failing to
do. If you say it is wrong to condemn by their own standard, is it okay to condemn by
your own? Evidently. So why critize them for using your standard of being okay to
condemn. What’s the point of that? Laugh at them for a double standard, write them off
as inconsistent and not worth listening to, but to join in the hypocrisy you cite, what is
that?.

When there is a dialogue about what the Bible says, over and over again people quickly
switch it off of whether or not it says that to whether or not the Bible is credible or
true. In other words, they don’t admit the plain facts of what the Bible does actually
say. They are free to say they don’t believe there is proof that the Bible is valid as a
guide to life, but again the issue in a lot of discussions is that people make the bible
out to say things it does not and draw a lot of conclusions from that. Have those
conclusions without twisting the Bible. Don’t like the standards without denying that
they are there. But to say the bible doesn’t say what it says or mean what it means,
that’s certainly disingenuine. It’s intellectually dishonest. When the bible is shown to
say and mean what it says, the discussion quickly shifts to making the people engaging in
this open free discussion to be terrible people and judgemental and etc. In other words,
if you can’t get away from the facts, disparage the fact giver.

It would be much better to say, “Okay, so it says “Thou shalt not commit
adultery” and “I know that means what we all think it means but I just don’t
agree with it. I have never had the Bible come to be a meaningful guide in my life in any
other area and I won’t be starting here.” That is intellectually honest and
emotionally honest.

So, if I or anyone else discuss openly and honestly what the Bible means because I see
errors, I am not judging anyone. I am not saying you need to live by it. I am just
noticing that someone has the facts wrong. I don’t think peole should be all bent out of
shape at the messenger because they don’t like the measure. Those are separate issues.
Why discuss facts if you don’t want them straight. Why say what you think the Bible means
if you are not open to finding out you might be wrong. And if you are wrong, why shift to
criticising and condemning people as being criticisers and condemners.

Look, I don’t what anyone to think that the purpose of the Bible and Christians is to go
around bashing people and saying how terrible they are and how great we are. If a person
could “get” what I would wish them to get, it is this: All of us, left to our
own, go terribly astray. We say hurtful things, we do hurtful things. This whole
exchange that happens even in this blog can contain hurtful things. But God designed us,
as the Bible says, to have life and have it to the full! And it won’t come by my efforts,
so I won’t be condemning you or anyone else for your lack of effort because I am one and
the same cloth as anyone who has gone against what God has done. But the amazing thing
that draws a person to Christ is that he offers to look past all of our weakness, he
offers to take us just as we are and EMPOWER us to live the way we always wanted to live,
from the heart, not as a to-do list that is hard to follow but as the greatest thing we
can imagine, and it is natural. It won’t happen over night, but I have come to realize
this, if heaven is going to be a perfect place, it must be filled with perfect people.
And we can’t make ourselves perfect, so someone else must. And God has made the offer.
If we want to be with him, be willing to be like him. If we judge that being like him is
disdainful, we won’t accept his free gift. And if we don’t accept the gift of being
forgiven our past wrongs and being empowered to do something better that we on our own
could never do, then he won’t force it. He’s like a loving parent of an 18 year old. You
can love them but you can’t make them accept your love. God is better than any human mom
or dad. He never wants anything but your ultimate best. He never does anything mean or
spiteful. He loves us when we are unlovable. I like God.

The Bible, according to its own words, was written to wake people up to let them know that
according to God’s standards we fall far short and none of us can get to heaven by earning
it. Some people think it was made to earn our way. No, it was made to show us how silly
that is. Why did it do that? So that we would realize we can’t do this on our own and so
we would reach out and accept a full and free pardon and the most amazing thing of all,
God would offer to give us the right desires and the ability to be like that. And the
reward for all of that? Just to be more and more like him is its own reward. The Bible
was written to wake us up. Now is the day to choose. Now is the day of salvation. Today
if you hear His voice, do not harden our hearts. Receive the gift. Jesus said, “I
did not come into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world.” And he
went on to say that anyone who rejects him, is condemned already because that person
refused to believe. How can you be saved if you don’t believe you need saving and that
there is a saving and that he loves you? And if a person does believe in Christ and
Christ comes to live in him by faith, he is already going to heaven, case is closed,
because God has melded himself to that person and God will not reject himself. Christ in
us is our hope of heaven. If he would live in us, he could fix us. If he can fix us, we
can go to heaven. Yes, that’s the story.

Condemning? Rules? Criticism? Judgemental? I don’t like to traffic there. But for
many people, there is a better life ahead if only someone would alert them it exists and
yes, it is for them too, not just me. I go to church because I love the taste of Jesus in
my life. I go there like a person goes to a hospital–not at all because I’m so good I
want to show it, but because of how desperately I need Jesus in my life everyday or I’m
hopeless. He uses different people to help me and form me. I go because I desperately
need him. I go because I am sick and needy. Jesus said, “I did not come to call the
righteous, but the sick and needy.” He spent time with what the church people of his
day considered the worst of people. Why? Because he loves us. God plainly loves us.

He told a woman caught in adultery, “Neither do I condemn you” even though the
law said she should be stoned. Ah, thank you God for forgiveness when we have nothing we
can say! And yet he said to her, “Go and sin no more.” What does that mean?
There is something better.

If anyone ever “gets” anything from all discussions on what the Bible says or
doesn’t say, hopefully they get this: it’s not to condemn us so as to reject us, it’s to
get us to realize our true selves and reach out and accept all God would ever give us and
want us to be. In shortest, it is, “God, I want to be like you. Help me O God, for
I fail. I want to be like you not because I want to earn your love, but because I see you
love and it is so wonderful how can I live in it and share it and thank you for it.”

Well, that’s all I would want to say when it comes to discussing the Bible. Not to
condemn, just to “get” it. Get what it says. Get why it has those laws. Get
what they mean. They are for everyone, to show us there has to be another way than trying
to be do gooders. And yes, everyone is a do-gooder AND a do-badder. But there is another
way. Oh man is it wonderful. I’m not wonderful, but oh how merciful and wonderful my God
is to a poor wretched person like me. He’ll love you the same as he loves me, and it’s a
love you’ll never regret.

So, are you in the act of adultery? “Neither do I condemn you.” What next
then? “Go and sin no more.” Can’t do that, but maybe want to? Jesus–in your
heart and soul, letting him take control of your life, if he can’t fix us no one can. And
you know what? God never fails. There isn’t any life that is so far out there that God
can’t fix it. Impossible, never. God’s love is bigger than our sin. He wants only one
thing, for a wandering child to come home. No matter how far we roam, God is seeking to
save and care for that which is his own. Just reach out to him on his terms. He’ll take
care of the rest. No one who comes to him will ever be put to shame. Never.

Jesus said, “Come to me all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest,
take my yoke on you and learn from me, I am gentle and humble in heart. You will find
rest for your souls.” Amen.

If it wasn’t for Jesus, I would be very messed up and miserable. I’m still messed up but
he is unmessing me up, and I love him for doing that for me. Oh how I love him for that,
the forgiver, not the condemner, who doesn’t leave me as I am but makes me what I need to
be,what I wish I could be. I desperately need it, I want it, I just couldn’t do it. I
want to be with him in heaven. I know he is good. God, do whatever You need to do in me
so that You can make me fit. It won’t be me praising me when I get there, it will be all
You. And for that, God, I give you my love. Wow. God is sooooooo good.

You wrote,

“Let me give you some credit as well for the way you have handled this discussion. And when I critisize others for the way they have judged us in the swinging lifestlyle, let me make clear, you’re not included in that criticism. Others have shown joy and comfort in the belief that those of us who choose this “alternative” lifestlye will be punished in the end. Many have reveled in the belief that our kids will suffer. (read other comments in the original post) How can this be a healthy belief?”

Be careful as to your memory regarding earlier posts and read them again regarding reveling in the suffering of your kids. It was a very clear warning that kids will be affected by the “alternative” lifestyle choosen for good or for bad. Keeping it honest.

the question is this:

WILL YOUR LIFE COME TO AN END BECAUSE THIS COUPLE IS SWINGING?

NO? Well then, move on and mind your business.

The commandment to not commit adultery does apply in all instances. The bible contains a record of imperfect men. They do not redefine God’s Ten Commandments, which have never been vague but rather explicit:

“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

You said lots of Bible laws are not followed. I said as much myself, and explained the ones that were not followed and why–the difference between the ceremonial laws, civil laws and laws that reflect the character of God.

Jesus himself mentioned that Moses permitted divorce because of their hardhearts. That doesn’t mean God approves of it.

Matthew 19:7

“Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Polygamy being written about in the Bible is not condoning it, no more than the civil law of allowing divorces due to the hardness of men’s hearts somehow changes the commandment regarding adultery. Jesus affirmed it, not denied it.

I am not picking and choosing anything. I am saying what the Bible means and the verses I share back that up.

So, regarding your “shame on you for pretending to know what Gods laws are and judging me”. I never judged you, but I did judge your words. For judging your words, I receive no shame. If you got an error on a math problem, is that the kind of “judging” a math teacher should receive a “shame on you” for pointing out? No, I don’t receive any shame. We are just discussing what we see the Bible to mean. I think you are in error on your understanding. That’s civil discourse last time I checked.

According to the Bible’s definition, as reiterated by Jesus, what many people are doing is called “adultery” and is a violation of the 10th commandment. You can say, “I don’t go by the Bible”. That’s your choice. If you say it doesn’t say what it says, I take issue.

Then you said I pretend to know God’s laws. Hmmm… So if I teach someone how to multiply and divide, do I pretend to be a mathematician? Not at all. I know the math, therefore I can comment on it. In the same way, I don’t pretend to know God’s laws. I read them. I read what Jesus said and I shared that. Is that pretending? No pretending is needed, we are not discussing what we do not see, but what we clear see, the Bible.

While it is convenient to try to dismiss the facts we are discussing by making me out to be a pretender, there is nothing to pretend about. The Bible clearly says what it says and Jesus clearly clarified that man’s recorded selective obedience and disobedience has never changed that standard, from Adam through Moses, through David, through Christ.

Lastly, there is a difference between killing and murder. Thanks for pointing that out. The 1611 King James version that was written in the language of the people of that day translated the word “kill”. Translations for modern english speaking countries render the original Hebrew words as “You shall not murder.” There is no interpretation of the text we have before us needed on this point, unless we are reading a 400 year old text, then we need to bring the language into modern terms. Does that clarify anything?

I don’t think your points are valid, nor that you can you say the words of the Old Testament aren’t clear or are not in effect with regard to adultery.

Again, you are free to judge or not judge yourself by the Bible’s definition of adultery. You are free to believe it is not in effect today.

But if you say the Bible does not define adultery as to what it clearly does, or if you say that it is clear the law is selective and thus not really an absolute, well, I would take issue with that.

I hope that reading Jesus’ own words on the subject help clarify that.

Thanks for the comments. I hope this helps.

Bill N.

You wrote that God’s view is “Do not covet thy neighbors wife unless they are in an open marriage.”

Bill said…
>>>You missed one of the Ten Commandments: Exodus 20:14 “You shall not commit adultery.” Webster defines adultery as “Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband.”>>>

Hi Bill,

The Bible contains a few examples of men marrying more than one person. Clearly the commandment to not commit adultery does not apply to all instances. Just as thou shalt not kill does not apply when christians are at war or killing in self defense. So you see Bill, the commandments are too vague and always have been. Which is why we have a more complex code of laws now compared to when the Bible was written. I could name lots of examples of laws in the Bible that are no longer followed. You are picking and choosing which laws I and others should follow based on your whims, not Gods. Shame on you for pretending to know what Gods laws are and judging me.

Jonathan

All that said, much has changed. We are separated, but living in the same town (it helps because we have kids). Our friend is still around, and I don’t know if they are still sexually involved. They are not in an exclusive relationship, per se, but they are still very close.

I feel very hurt by the whole thing. The one person I trusted the most in my life turned her back on me at my most vulnerable moment. I am trying to recover, but it’s hard. There are many other factors involved as well, but this entry would be a mile long.

My advice, though, to all who have been participating in this discussion is to not judge others. What is not right for you may be just the right thing for someone else. Everyone is at a different place in life and we can’t expect everyone to fall inline with our beliefs. Thanks for your time…

At most, you can say it represents the distribution of opinions among your readers.

You are hardly the first people to investigate how widespread “swinging” is in the United States. The most scientific estimates I have seen show that between 1 and 2% of married or committed couple are involved at any given time, with something around 10-12% having tried it at some point in the relationship (that’s a percent of relationships, not a percent of people). Interestingly, these rates have held fairly steady since the late 60s (“free love”), with a temporary dip in the late 80s. (aids crisis).

We have several topics before us. Let’s clarify what they are and knock them off one by one. Lets be succinct and strive for mutual understanding of each other’s opinions, even if we don’t agree. OK.

1) Adultery. The Webster’s definition and the Bible’s definition match. A married person having sexual relations with someone not their spouse commits adultery.

2) Old Testament obsolete, null & void. You started by referencing Leviticus, Lobster and a female taking two doves to the preacher to atone for her uncleanness after her monthly cycle. You guessed I would say, “It’s in the old testament,” and asked where does it say that everything in the old testament is null and void. The things are referenced above are null and void. The Old Testament contains a record of several covenants. The one at Mount Sinai is such a covenant (Ten Commandments). It contained rules for spiritual purity, for civil law, and for ceremonial purity. The spiritual part is transcendent, timeless. The civil laws (national laws) are not transcendent. The ceremonial laws were fulfilled in Christ, the ultimate sacrifice, the purification for all uncleanness. I regret writing loosely with my words. It was to those ceremonial laws I was referring. I guessed that was all you were thinking and chose to use your terms null & void based on the examples you gave.

3) No other gods. You pick things to ask about that are not easy to field briefly as I would like. The Bible clearly states there are no other gods. However, the people on earth believed there were. An idol is an object fashioned in the image of what they believe are gods.

1 Corinthians 8:4 We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one…. 7 But not everyone knows this.

Isaiah 44:16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, “Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.” From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, “Save me; you are my god.”

4) Using the Bible as a reference doesn’t change your view of swinging. So far, that is true.

5) What proof do I have that God did anything? You believe the Bible was written 400 years after events, are full of stories not facts, and Job’s suffering is a man made story.

The Bible is not man-made story. Consider the following.

Moses, Pharaoh and the Plagues–easy to disprove if false. Can you?

Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar’s written proclamations to all the peoples of every nation and language in the world.

First regarding his three friends who went into the fiery furnace rather than bow to the king.

Daniel 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar said, “Praise be to the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, who has sent his angel and rescued his servants! They trusted in him and defied the king’s command and were willing to give up their lives rather than serve or worship any god except their own God. Therefore I decree that the people of any nation or language who say anything against the God of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego be cut into pieces and their houses be turned into piles of rubble, for no other god can save in this way.” Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the province of Babylon.

King Nebuchadnezzar, To the peoples, nations and men of every language, who live in all the world: May you prosper greatly! It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed for me. How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an eternal kingdom; his dominion endures from generation to generation.

Were those written declarations that went out into all the tongues and nations of the entire world he ruled at that time fact or story? Easy to disprove if false because so highly visible! Can you? And King Nebuchadnezzar testified that God did real and mighty things. You can disagree, but it is your word against his. And the three Hebrews in the fiery furnace? It was a pretty viewed execution by the satraps. Story? Easy to disprove. Seen any documents from Nebuchadnezzar’s contemporaries denying it, especially the satraps?

Daniel in Belteshazzar’s kingdom. Daniel 5:29 “Then at Belshazzar’s command, Daniel was clothed in purple, a gold chain was placed around his neck, and he was proclaimed the third highest ruler in the kingdom.” Fact or story?

Daniel and Darius’ kingdom.

Daniel 6:1 “It pleased Darius to appoint 120 satraps to rule throughout the kingdom, 2 with three administrators over them, one of whom was Daniel.”
Daniel 6:24 “At the king’s command, the men who had falsely accused Daniel were brought in and thrown into the lions’ den, along with their wives and children. And before they reached the floor of the den, the lions overpowered them and crushed all their bones. Then King Darius wrote to all the peoples, nations and men of every language throughout the land: ‘May you prosper greatly! I issue a decree that in every part of my kingdom people must fear and reverence the God of Daniel. For he is the living God and he endures forever; his kingdom will not be destroyed, his dominion will never end. He rescues and he saves; he performs signs and wonders in the heavens and on the earth. He has rescued Daniel from the power of the lions.’ So Daniel prospered during the reign of Darius and the reign of Cyrus the Persian.”

Pretty visible. He wrote to every nation and language. He confirmed Daniel was saved from the lions. Why make up stories so easy disprove, written down in every language on earth at the time under his domain. Fact or not? And this king also says God is a living God and performs signs and wonders. That’s two kings so far that say God did something.

Ezra and Cyrus’ kingdom.

2 Chronicles 36:22 “In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing: ‘This is what Cyrus king of Persia says: “The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of his people among you–may the LORD his God be with him, and let him go up…. 6:11 Furthermore, I decree that if anyone changes this edict, a beam is to be pulled from his house and he is to be lifted up and impaled on it. And for this crime his house is to be made a pile of rubble. May God, who has caused his Name to dwell there, overthrow any king or people who lifts a hand to change this decree or to destroy this temple in Jerusalem. I Darius have decreed it. Let it be carried out with diligence.” ‘ ”

He put it in writing, and sent it to all the kingdoms. He believed in this God, and says he was appointed to see to it that the temple was rebuilt. Another king, another written decree, to all nations. Not the sort of thing you tell stories about if you are trying to make them up. Fact or story?

Esther and Mordecai and evil Haman and King Xerxes’ kingdom.
Esther 8:7 King Xerxes replied to Queen Esther and to Mordecai the Jew, “Because Haman attacked the Jews, I have given his estate to Esther, and they have hanged him on the gallows. 8 Now write another decree in the king’s name in behalf of the Jews as seems best to you, and seal it with the king’s signet ring–for no document written in the king’s name and sealed with his ring can be revoked.” At once the royal secretaries were summoned–on the twenty-third day of the third month, the month of Sivan. They wrote out all Mordecai’s orders to the Jews, and to the satraps, governors and nobles of the 127 provinces stretching from India to Cush. These orders were written in the script of each province and the language of each people and also to the Jews in their own script and language. Mordecai wrote in the name of King Xerxes, sealed the dispatches with the king’s signet ring, and sent them by mounted couriers, who rode fast horses especially bred for the king. The king’s edict granted the Jews in every city the right to assemble and protect themselves; to destroy, kill and annihilate any armed force of any nationality or province that might attack them and their women and children; and to plunder the property of their enemies. 12 The day appointed for the Jews to do this in all the provinces of King Xerxes was the thirteenth day of the twelfth month, the month of Adar. 13 A copy of the text of the edict was to be issued as law in every province and made known to the people of every nationality so that the Jews would be ready on that day to avenge themselves on their enemies. The couriers, riding the royal horses, raced out, spurred on by the king’s command. And the edict was also issued in the citadel of Susa. Mordecai left the king’s presence wearing royal garments of blue and white, a large crown of gold and a purple robe of fine linen… Mordecai the Jew was second in rank to King Xerxes, preeminent among the Jews, and held in high esteem by his many fellow Jews, because he worked for the good of his people and spoke up for the welfare of all the Jews.”

Fact or story? A little to specific about the month and day and the whole signet thing too. Easy to disprove, can you? This is the beginning of the festival of Purim celebrated this day. Story or fact?

And the stories go on. You see, God placed his people in some of the very most highly visible places in some of the most notable kingdoms of men, and caused some of these most known Kings to write words praising his mighty acts and declaring them to generations to come, you and I included. What was it these people saw that so profoundly influenced them to state their believe in God and his acts to the whole known world? Whatever it was, it sure affected them. And the stories they confirm in their letters support at least those stories. It starts to at least raise the possibility that not all the stories in the bible are baseless. We can at least now say, “Well, okay I can accept this one and that one.” That’s a start. It’s okay to accept facts. And to these men, the facts of God were the acts of God, and by them, they believed

6) You are most likely going to be the religion of the country you are in. (I’ll answer next time).

7) All the different sects in Christianity and people’s claim that Jesus is the only way. (I’ll answer next time).

Why is my level of sexual acceptance the right one? Is there right and wrong on sexual acceptance.

If you say there is no right and wrong, I have no basis in your eyes to make a judgement that extends to you. But if there is a right and wrong that applies to all, then we can both look at it and judge each other by it. We must be careful we are talking about right and wrong, not just mere variations. I know you would agree with that last part. But I do not think you would agree with the first part. At least, not yet. I believe there is a right and wrong and share my views based on that. I believe you also hold to a right or wrong. You question why I think my view extends to others. Good question. In the end, you are free to accept or reject, or to challenge why I think I am right and another is wrong. You did that. I don’t know if I have time in this round to answer that. Maybe another round. Maybe ask it differently to help me?

9) Thanks for the complement about not gloating that people will suffer as payback for doing things I do not agree with.

10) This discussion coming to an end. (Is it?)

To tie this back to the topic, people don’t think the Bible is a valid guide on the issue of swinging or adultery. Part of the reason is that they don’t believe there is a God, nor that the Bible is real. I guess that beneath that, they don’t really believe that the Bible’s admonitions in regards to sexuality, if followed, are actually better for us. To the extent any of this helps open the door to considering that maybe there is something to this, that is good.

And to you as well a thank you, because beneath the many objections you bring up, you are interested enough (serious about your questions) to continue to ask them, not just a slam and run. That is an agreeable way to be as well.

In any event, we have freely exercised an American privilege to communicate through a forum that the moderators have graciously allowed to extend as far as it has.

Talk to you later. Thanks for the rapport.

Bill N.

“Hebrews 8:13 “By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete;”

Now you’re saying that only parts of the old testament are obsolete and others are still valid. I don’t mean to pick at what you’re saying, it just seems convenient how what you’re saying changes as the need for biblical references changes. That’s one of the problems with the bible or any religious text, they’re open to interpretation. One thing will “symbolize” another, well, someone else might just interpret that as something else. But I guess that’s what preachers and pastors are for, to tell us what to believe. (trying not to be completely sarcastic here..lol..)
It’s funny you bring up the “you shall have no other gods before me” Doesn’t that clearly state that there are other gods? Keep in mind, at that time all society had a polytheistic mindset. This was clearly a rule to make this the number one god above others.
I agree with you and don’t want to make this soley a biblical discussion, but since the majority of people who are critisizing this lifestlye seem to quote the bible as reference, it seems appropriate for some discussion.
Let me apologize for the way I answered your question before about changing the way I feel towards swinging with an “Absolutely not!” I guess in writing, things can come across differently that intended, and re-reading my statement, I can see where you took that as a rude comment. It wasn’t intended that way, just trying to say that using the bible as a reference doesn’t change how I think about swinging. The same way as if I showed you a book that was a collection of swinging stories and told how people improved their relationships by swinging wouldn’t change your opinion. You and I look at the bible differently. I think of it as a book written by man to help bring some peace and law to a very unruly society, you think of it as the word of god. With that difference, you and I will never see eye to eye on many many topics.

When you talk about faith, you say:
“God’s actions are recorded in it, real things he did.”
What proof do you have that god did anything. Other than a book that wasn’t even written for approx 400 years after these events occured. This again shows how differently we both read the bible. You read it as fact, I read it as a collection of stories. For example in the book of Job, how do you accept that “god” destroyed this man’s life, his livestock, killed his children and servants all for a “bet” with the devil? You might say at the end, he got more kids and more servants and more livestock. That does nothing to the families of the original servants that were killed or for his original kids that were killed. He got more materialistic things in the end than he had before and this is what the lesson of Job is, stick with god through thick and thin and you’ll be rewarded in the end. This is such a “man made” story.
You bring up a book “What about those who have never heard.” in response to my question about birthplace having to do with religion. That answers a small part of my question. My point wasn’t really for those who haven’t heard as much as those who live in other parts of the world where they know of Chrisitanity, but the accepted practice is (insert any other religion here). Where you are born has direct implications as to what religion you are. There are small exceptions to this of course, but if you live in a buddist country, you’re most likely going to be buddist, regardless of what religions you’ve read about or heard about. Same goes for muslims, hindus etc.
What about the differents sects of christianity here in the US. I was listening to catholic radio a few days ago and heard the host talking about how only catholicism holds 100% truth and that other sects of christianity can only hold some percentage of truth where they are in agreement with catholicism. My thought process if “you’ve got to be kidding me.” People buy into this. Depending on what person and how “hardcore” they are, regarding the truth of their particular sect, will depend on whether the people of different sects of christianity will end up in hell for not agreeing. Others will say that since they accepted Jesus as their savior they’re good. How can any one person say that their’s is the ONLY way. This goes for different religions as well as different sects of christianity.
And you’re right when you say that everyone judges and for different reasons. The difference is when one person judges based on a religion that others may not agree with. I could probably find mormon scriptures that will back the swinging or poly lifestlye, but would that do anything for you? I’m guessing not, so why bother.
To answer your question regarding if the bible supports swinging. I will agree with you one hundred percent. The bible doesn’t support swinging and if I read that previous post correctly, I think the individual you were speaking of was being sarcastic in his response. But that’s just how I read it, maybe I’m wrong.
Regarding my question to you involving your sexual preferences vs others. I was in no way asking you to discuss what you do behind closed doors. I was only pointing out that no matter how “tame” “vanilla” “conservative” or “traditional” (not trying to be derogatory, just whatever term gets my point across) your sex life might be, there will be others that will say that you’re commiting a sin by your sexual practices. Read above examples in earlier posts.
But again, why is your level of sexual acceptance the correct one since you can easily find people on both sides of where you draw your line of acceptable sexual involvement?
Let me give you some credit as well for the way you have handled this discussion. And when I critisize others for the way they have judged us in the swinging lifestlyle, let me make clear, you’re not included in that criticism. Others have shown joy and comfort in the belief that those of us who choose this “alternative” lifestlye will be punished in the end. Many have reveled in the belief that our kids will suffer. (read other comments in the original post) How can this be a healthy belief? This is what I was talking about when I was discussing those who judge, and how the most hatred and animosity has come from those who use religion as their reason.
Again, I have enjoyed our discussion and thank you for your comments and your friendliness throughout. You are one who leads by example as opposed to the many I discussed above, and I thank you for that. It appears as this discussion seems to be coming to an end and I wish you the best as well as the many others that have chimed in on this topic.

I used the Webster’s definition because it was handy and an easy way to illustrate that people are changing the definitions of things today to be different than what these words have meant for a couple thousand years. Websters doesn’t define the Bible’s words. In this particular case in which I quoted it, it REFLECTS the same definition as the Bible. I tried to appeal to a common view point since we don’t share a Hebrew dictionary together. You hit the nail on the head, that definitions will be replaced. For now, I was talking about swinging as an ancient practice that now goes by the label “swinging”, and used the word adultery as it has been defined for a couple thousand years (which includes swinging).

Regarding the Old Testament being null and void, I should have expanded on that much better. Sorry about that. I wondered how deep I should go in such a limited forum. Since you bring it up again, it is worth clarifying.

The Old Testament has some laws that reflect the moral nature of God and some that regard the rituals of man. The animal sacrifice system was clearly abolished when Christ offered himself as the ultimate sacrifice. I can provide many Bible references if needed. The laws about which foods to eat were also clearly abolished, as the New Testament also clearly and specifically indicates. So were observing special days. But what hasn’t changed is the character of God, which is to be our character. And anything in the Old Testament that reflects his moral character is still in effect.

It is my belief that since he asks for faithful devotion to him, and since marriage is a reflection of the relationship he wants us to have with him, I believe the first commandment, “You shall have no other gods” reflects that part is just part of who God is and is an eternal thing. I really made a mistake assuming you were thinking only about sacrifice laws and things like that, so I didn’t try to take on that phrase “null and void” but I should have listened to that voice in the back of my head.

If you ask me has God changed his moral character and his moral laws, I would say no. Does the Old Testament contain those? Yes. Are those void? No. Are those contained in the New Testament also? Yes. In fact, several of them are QUOTED in the New Testament. If we lost the Old Testament, the moral laws are still seen in the New Testament.

The concept of adultery was brought forward into the New Testament by Jesus own words. The Bible doesn’t allow for someone to say that the prohibition against adultery no longer applies. And it also doesn’t let people say that the rules regarding animal sacrifice are still in effect.

Please forgive me for not reading where you were going with this and for failing to take the time to explain more carefully.

You have a lot of views and objections to Christianity. I could deal with those one by one. But my question would be the same as it was with swinging: “Does this change anything for you?” (“Absolutely not!” you wrote to my last question like that.)

Also, you mentioned the subject of faith. Faith does not mean “believing without proof” as you said. Jesus asked people to believe in him on account of his miracles if they would not believe him because of his words. In other words, he said, “Consider the evidence that my miracles point to.”

Please don’t come down too hard on a poor analogy but when a bank grants you credit, it does so exercising faith that in the future you will pay them back even though they cannot guarantee you will. But based on your credit history, they see a pattern in you and based on that they extend this trust. In the same way, the Bible says that faith itself is a gift of God. How is it a gift? How can faith be a gift? Well, God’s actions are recorded in it, real things he did. And these actions lead to conclusions about how God is and how he deals with us. Based on what he did for us in Jesus Christ, we can have faith that he will forgive us also. That kind of thing.

Faith is based on reason, but goes beyond reason. God expects us to have faith. Why? Because of all the things he has done for us in the past. He expects us to apply that to the future and get the message that he will be the same yesterday, today and forever. By his actions.

I wouldn’t say that where you were born determines whether you go to heaven. It’s not wise in this forum to get too deeply into that and books have been written on this one. But there are answers for these questions if you are interested in them. I read a book once entitled “What about those who have never heard.” You might look it up. Two of the three writers were serious and one not as serious. They presented three different views, in point counterpoint format. Interesting to say the least.

Most people who say something is right or wrong judge by their preferences, not based on a belief in a universal standard that governs all people for all time. They would say, “It is wrong to tell others they are wrong.” But by doing so, they commit the “wrong” they say is wrong. Is it wrong to have and act on a belief in right or wrong. Should we stop a murder? Is murder wrong? Should we stop people from stealing? Is stealing wrong. If something is wrong in that strong moral way, it gives you the right to judge another by that standard. The real argument is: who has the right standard. So, were you wrong when you said it is wrong for people to say that others are wrong?

It doesn’t matter to our discussion why many “monagomous” relationships end in divorce. I was discussing swinging as not being supported by the Bible. Are you switching away from that discussion, or do you actually grant that the Bible does indeed teach against multiple concurrent sexual relationships. That’s the whole point of why I wrote the last submission–because someone said the bible supported it. This other question about monogamy can be fielded, but it’s not why I am writing. So, do you feel the Bible, as written, actually supports swinging or opposes it? Or was that not your issue. I don’t think it was your issue.

Yes, I would try to help my wife if she had thoughts I thought were “taboo”. Yes, through her own relationship with God and my praying to God about the issue and asking his help.

I have to say that no one knows anything about my sexual relationship with my wife that they would think it is taboo in some way, so I can’t comment on how I answer people because I can’t imagine the question. Sex is a gift from God. God meant it to be used in a one to one permanent relationship. You ask me for my level of acceptance of various things, and wonder if it includes things like oral sex or sodomy or things like that. You are asking for answers on things I don’t wish to discuss in public. But even if I did, what would you gain from hearing from me. Doesn’t sound like anyone’s opinion matters to how you feel on these things. Sounds like you already know there is a difference and already have opinions about them. I cleared up the bible issue and asked if that made a difference and you said absolutely not.

And regarding this last statement: “The problem however is the judgemental attitude that comes from the other side towards how I live my life.” I’ll leave that one lay. Why? We are talking about swinging. So, like you, I’m going to share my opinion, and mine is that the optimum and best is one man and one woman. Secondly, when people say the Bible supports it, I’m chimed in and correct that error because I am familiar with the Bible enough to clear up that misconception.

Beyond that, I don’t think I need to pound on my opinion, do you?

I just shared freely like others my view on swinging

Judgemental. It is a good word. It can be good and bad. I disagree with your views. I don’t subcribe to them. I don’t think they are best. I am making judgments, yes. The thing is, we can discuss our judgements without being demeaning. I think we did that here.

This is tiring.

This forum is about swinging. My view was expressed earlier. Someone mentioned the Bible supported swinging. I, hopefully, clarified for certain it does not.

That’s what this forum was about.

Now, all this other stuff, we’d better cease, as we are getting off the topic. Good stuff you are discussing, and worthy to discuss, just not here in this forum (or we’ll be out of line for what it is about)!

I will read your next post if you have one, but I’m terrible at finding a stopping point, so I’ll try for this to be my last.

That’s it for me. Have a good day RR. Bye now.

Bill N Wrote
“I’m curious: Does understanding the Bible better change your views about swinging?”

Absolutely not! Why is the bible right, why is the old testament (some parts) wrong? Why is the Koran Wrong? Why are Hindus / Muslims / Buddists / Jews / and all other religions wrong? Why are you right? If you talk to them, they’ll say you’re wrong and you’re going to hell, and they’ll then quote their Holy book as to why. So, basically whether or not you’re going to hell or heaven is determined by where you were born. Born in a Christian society and choose to accept it, going to heaven. Born in a Buddist society (which many will say is a much more holy life than any other) sorry, going to hell because you chose to worship Buddah rather than Jesus.
But wait, if you’re born in a christian society and you’re catholic rather than baptist or vice versa or you’re a protestant or methodist.. oops, right religion, wrong sect, sorry going to hell. How is this the commonly accepted view on religion?
I’m what you would call an agnostic. I believe there might be some higher power, might not be, but I just don’t know. What I will say I believe is that my life isn’t determined by some book whether it be the bible or any other religious text. I live my life by what is right and wrong and what can be explained and proven to be right or wrong. Let me also say that I’m a conservative (politically) agnostic and I don’t think prayer should be removed form schools or that the phrase “in god we trust” should be removed from the bible. I believe in common sense and a majority of american citizens are religious and want those items available.

There are many problems with the new testament as well as the old testament. There are many problems with using this religious document as “proof” of what’s right or wrong. My right or wrong can be proven logically rather than with faith. By the way, do you understand the definition of faith? Faith means believing without proof, if you had proof, it would just be. So, if you don’t have proof, how do you know what you’re believing in?

You say that swinging is partly the cause of infidelity in marriage. Why is it then that more “monagomous” relationships end in divorce from infidelity than in swinging relationships?

I ask again, what would happen if you’re wife came to you with a fantasy that involved something that you considered taboo? Would she come to you or would she go elsewhere knowing how you would react? I don’t know, but I know logically what the answer would be. I don’t know you, but from your posts, I know that you would probably judge and try to “Fix” her, I’m guessing through the chruch.

How do you answer people that are more religious than you and feel that your level of sexual involvement with your wife is taboo? I don’t know your limits, but many will say (and I’m sorry to those that have read other posts of mine, I’m yet to get a solid answer or any answer for that matter) that sex for anything other than pro-creation is a sin, or sex with the lights on is a sin, or sex in anything other than the missionary position is a sin, or oral sex is a sin (most definitions will include oral sex in the definition of sodomy). So, why is your level of sexual “acceptance” the acceptable level and not mine or others that are more conservative than you?
Sorry this is so long, but I’m still waiting on answers other than some obscure quote from the bible that have nothing to do with the questions posed to you.
Also, let me make this clear. If religion is your chosen path, I make no judgements for that path and I commend you for your choice and discipline. I would never want to make anyone question their faith nor do I think I have the ability to do so. But again, I think it’s a individual choice. The problem however is the judgemental attitude that comes from the other side towards how I live my life.

You wrote that God’s view is “Do not covet thy neighbors wife unless they are in an open marriage.”

You missed one of the Ten Commandments: Exodus 20:14 “You shall not commit adultery.” Webster defines adultery as “Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married man and someone other than his wife or between a married woman and someone other than her husband.”

And you missed Jesus’ teaching, Matthew 19:9 Jesus replied, “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

People in the Bible would divorce their wives and then marry someone else, and then divorce that person and remarry their wife, to try to get around the clear commandment “You shall not commit adultery.” However, Jesus said that even that was adultery. To have sexual relations with someone is to be wed to them in God’s eyes. And to be unfaithful to that person by having sexual relations with another is against the Ten Commandments, and the New Testament carries this teaching over.

You also wrote, “The bible contains non-monogamy, so the lord said it was good as long as it was consensual ‘in the heart.’” I think the above notations however would speak against that.

I’m curious: Does understanding the Bible better change your views about swinging?

Jonathan

Jesus himself made the new covenant, replacing the old:

1 Corinthian 11:25 “In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood;’”

Hebrews 8:7-8 “…For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.”

Hebrews 8:13 “By calling this covenant ‘new,’ he has made the first one obsolete;”

Also, remember what the word “Testament” itself means! Webster, “1a archaic : a covenant between God and the human race bcapitalized : either of two main divisions of the Bible.”

The very words “New Testament” MEANS new covenant, new agreement, new deal.

Not only does the title of the “New Testament” itself proclaim it is a new set of rules, but also the text within it, and the very words of Jesus himself.

I hope that helps. By the way, have you entered into that new covenant with him? Have you considered it?

2) To me you wrote “Why do you think there is so much infidelity in marriage today?”

Answer: Partly because of “swinging”

Lastly, you asked me “Why do you say that those in the swinging lifestyle are not stable or committed?”

Answer: Because the word commitment, when used to refer to sexual relationships, means committing yourself to only one person. Lots of movies or shows talk about a guy who is “not willing to commit”–and that always means the same thing: He wants to still have relations with many girls and not stick with just one. Stable is pretty much synonymous, but has a nuance about time. You are in mind “committed”, and in practice “stable” in that commitment.

I think that’s about all I can say along these lines. It appears you are pretty set in your thinking.

I’ve been pitching this for a while but there’s no moral right or wrong in this world. It’s just in certain societies that allow or disallow certain things.

Countries like Afghanistan have strict rules on how much exposure women can have in public (almost none) while in USA and Europe, strip bars are legal.

I cannot tell the Afghanis to change their perception of women because that’s what their culture views women as. And if an Afghani told us that Strip bars are immoral (I’m sure a lot of North Americans feel the same way too) we’d be pissed.

I’m not into swinging (although I’m single and I get what I can get from multiple partners – but I’m not in any kind of a relationship and I don’t want one right now) but I don’t think ANYBODY has the right to brand anything as immoral.

Think of the Christianity rules this way – God never changes but the religion does. God is far greater than something or somebody who would be concerned about whether we pray or not. God does not concern itself with whether one kills another or steals a wallet. God does not care if we cheat, lie, deceive.

The scripture, the rules, the commandments are more of restrictive governmental guidelines that emerged out of the old days when Religion and State were one, and a religious bond was required bring unity amongst its people.

Religion and religiosity is something that evolves with people. Back in the days it was immoral for women to wear short skirts or work in public – or if they did they were viewed as trashy, cheap, and unchristian. Does that apply to the rules today? What would you say if a woman couldn’t work at a card dealership because it involves talking to many other men and is considered by a scripture to be immoral?

I hope people that are “swinging” stop and realize: you’ll find what you are looking for when you become what others are looking for: stable, committed, not out to please yourself, but out to build others up. And when you become that someone, and someone like that finds you…WOW now that is wonderful.

And when you stick to each other during the times you aren’t like that, now THAT is commitment. And let me tell you, the same two magnets that attract, if one of them turns 180 degrees, they repell each other. The commitment of marriage is saying, “I’ll tie myself to you through thick and thin, so that you can get through this.” Do you know what a blessing it is to have someone say, “You can dump on me and I won’t reject you. I will support you in becoming the best you can be.” What more could we ask than for someone to love us and forgive us despite our imperfections, and still seek our own good ahead of their own.

Marriage, it will always be the way to go. It is truly what people are looking for. Some people may get a kick out of feeding their physical appetite for pleasure alone, no matter what effect it has on others.

But such a person isn’t honoring anyone. They are self-absorbed, and so much so they don’t know they are harming their own soul and pysche. You cannot be made whole by invading another person’s deeply private and intimate selves, and then dumping them. The path to wholeness and completeness and happiness is not found by destroying other’s chances for it.

For all those who are failing to support others whoh are trying to remain committed in their marriages in difficult times, help them by honoring that commitment yourselves and staying away from them. If you had a mom and dad all your childhood, pass the gift on.

You have my best wishes to make this world a better place–and in the process of doing so, finding someone who makes your world (your inner self) an even more wonderful place to be by their being willing to stay the course with you, thick and thin, to complete you, to cherish you, to love you, to forgive you, to not reject you, to work for your highest good, and to love on you.

When two people get a kick out of being with each other, that’s a good start. But you need a rope to hang on, during the wild rides that happen. That rope is marriage. Without it, tough times will ROB you of the pleasures you could have if you stuck with it. There is nothing like a lifelong partner. The more storms you weather, the closer you are.

Be willing to weather some storms, to give without return. If you do, you will have many more returns than you can imagine. Mostly, be a good person, ok?

But would like to try. Cannot resist the temptation of attractive females.

Sorry about that.

If you find the ‘act’ fullfilling, but not the relationship, then you never really achieved a mature connection with somebody to begin with. If you think life is mechanical and is only a result of actions, then you never really connected to somebody.

If you truly love and respect somebody, then you’ll only want that one person.

Suggest for the university based facts, not Christian moral myths, try reading Helen Fisher, Professor Emeritus at Rutgers, "Why we Love".

I’ve known I was “poly” since I was 12, just as many people realize they’re gay when still quite young. My wife and I were polyamorous both before and after we married, though we’ve occasionally experimented with monogamy. We’ve been married for 26 years. For the last 9 years we’ve lived in a polyfidelitous household with another couple, raising together their 2 daughters and our 2 sons. The other wife and I have a girlfriend as well who visits frequently and whom we visit in various combinations: it’s a triad overlapping a tetrad.

It’s very complex, and not something I would recommend anyone try who isn’t utterly committed to it, especially not if one partner is trying to leverage another partner into adding more. It works well for us, and for our many “poly” friends, but it’s not something most people can handle. It takes an incredibly high level of honesty, communication, and creativity. It certainly isn’t something to try if you have trouble maintaining one relationship. I’ve always thought it unrealistic and unfair to expect one person to fulfill all of my needs and desires; believe me, I’m really fulfilled. I’m the luckiest man in the world and I know it.

Our kids range from 16 to 24, and don’t seem any more screwed up than any of their friends. In fact, their friends tend to be astonished that we eat dinner together every night, unlike their “normal” families, and many of them drop in around dinner time to enjoy the family experience. Who’s got family values now?

You’re certainly not stupid. I have updated the text of this article to more clearly explain the results.

The difference is that those who said "Monogamy is the only way to go" are saying that for everyone, not just themselves… The one’s that I have labelled as indifferent are those who voted that it’s not for them, but they have no preference as to what others do.

Of course, the results of this poll, just as any other study are completely open to interpretation by the individuals conducting the study and those reading it.

It’s all perception and we all have different perceptions .

Also, thank you for coming to the site and voting. I think I’m leaning to our current banner as a contest winner too, but we are including 2 more that people can comment on.

Thanks again Dan and Jennifer!!!

Jane